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Forum Index : Electronics : ozinverter control no sinewave
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Tinker Guru  Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
I quite agree with you there Gary. All the info is there and while it takes a while (took me about a weeks evenings at the start) to sift it out, its all educational and a lot can be learned from other people's mistakes. These inverters have now progressed to a reasonable reliable stage for some time but there is still room for archiving perfection. I would recommend to all newcomers to inverter building to read as much as possible on the subject on this and other forums. For many it does not turn out an easy walk in the park but a road full of pitfalls. And when these are finally conquered one can be very proud about it. Also, I do not think this is a "paint by numbers" and she'll be all right project as some are telling us. Considering the lethal AC voltages and frightful power stored in the batteries and capacitors, a reasonable understanding of electricity should be there before attempting this mains inverter building. Klaus |
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wiseguy Guru Joined: 21/06/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1156 |
Hi Tinker, Thanks for the feedback - this is my first forum experience - In my working career I never found the time. I have lots to learn. Mad's suggestion of a big word document works for me, so simple but I was having too much fun reading zillions of posts to figure out how I was actually going to find the useful stuff again. I discovered the search function and found you were also having some fun with the EG8010 VFB pin a while ago. Poida has done some great work exploring this chips behaviour. I also recognise that I and others who may have recently joined are "standing on the shoulders of giants" and accessing a huge amount of knowledge, learning, pain and smoke and thankfully we can maybe avoid some of the same on our journeys. If at first you dont succeed, I suggest you avoid sky diving.... Cheers Mike |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
wiseguy, if you are interested in ancient history I believe this was the start of it all. Powerstar W7 inverter modification A chinese inverter damaged in transit six and a half years ago. There was a lot of "behind the scenes" messaging that was never documented and several forums that booted us off and deleted the topics for talking about anything to do with mains voltage. It will be different reading it now because you know what happened but at the time it was all seat of the pants guess-ology and quite exciting to see an idea come together. If you are going to build a esg02 board inverter you should start a topic and document some of the bits and pieces. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| wiseguy Guru Joined: 21/06/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1156 |
Thanks Yahoo2, that is just what I needed. That will shut me up for a while too, 135 pages! Love the initial idling current 4.3A!! It explains a lot about of the origins of this site & forums. I will start a new thread in due course - still a lot of reading and some (hopefully not silly) questions before that though. I will be watching "Mikes Alternative Inverter" project closely - it mirrors my approach to layout & using separate FET drivers opto-couplers etc. If at first you dont succeed, I suggest you avoid sky diving.... Cheers Mike |
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| johnmc Senior Member  Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282 |
Good day All When is time to move on? I have spent not hours but six months trying to get a usable inverter, and all I have ended up with is frustration and a lot of almost nearly there inverter PCB,s. This means that I am out of my depth and the last blowup was tonight. I may revisit the inverter when my sanity returns. Many thanks to all cheers john johnmc |
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renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
John, I'm sure Mad will build you one, of course I wouldn't expect him to do it for free, but at least you'll get a tested unit. I had a big help from Warpspeed today to get my toroid to hum at 75hz and test the chokes, perhaps your problems could lie in those components?? When I build the second backup Mad inverter the Clockman one I have that Oz gave a hiding will be for sale pretty cheap. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Hope you feel better about it soon John, there were several times I was ready to throw the whole lot in the bin, but after sleeping on it had another crack. That all changed after I added the totem pole drivers, I wish I knew why you are still having difficulties. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Hi John, You are not alone there with your experience. And I can understand your frustration, perhaps you do not share my 'never give up' attitude when it came to get something going that at first appeared simple but later turned out all but that. I think a few good sleeps should restore your sanity. And, if you are lucky, your dreams might point out exactly where your problems were. This happens often to me, I put things aside for a while if it looks like I'm getting badly bogged down. Later its often the case the 'problem' was a simple oversight or misunderstanding. Keep reading this forum and keep an eye out for any tips mentioned on the inverter commissioning procedure. I will be doing something like that but its a couple of weeks down the track until my next inverter is ready. Klaus |
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| johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282 |
Good Day All, My frustration continues Blown up three more sets of fets and 2 control boards since my last update. On the up side I can assemble and test the inverter system relatively quick my small 48 v car battery system for testing produces , nice wave form ,heat sinks remain cool, and only use the active and neutral no earth, runs 2kw heater easily able to switch the system off and on at will. When I check the active to neutral 220 vac nice and steady. What I do not understand is that, I get with the multi meter , 110 vac across active and earth also 110 vac neutral and earth (same on two different Transformers). there is no physical connection between any part of the inverter and the chassis / earth. I connect the same system to my large 1000 amp hr battery bank. System started nicely switched 2 kw on and off at the power point no problems. Increased the load to 3kw still working well. Switched the power point off, at the same instant one fet popped then hell broke loose (almost as if there was high voltage induced at switch off) the 68amp ac MCB welded together and the smoke and fire started. System uses the main earth ( which I have used for the last 2 years with a 8kw LF happy jack inverter. Question what type of earth system when using Inverter,s (Earth only connected to neutral at the switch board). As you can see I am at my wits end trying to solve this problem , any suggestions would be appreciated . Cheers john johnmc |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Hi John, Which PCB's are you using? With my Totem Pole boards I have never had the control board damaged in any way. Also did you see the correction with the 5k1 resistor "R46 between the TIP35C and HY4008 MOSFETS is incorrect on the silkscreen please change from 10R to 5K". I don't know why you get 110VAC readings but there must be only one earth connection and that will be in the switchboard. If your heatsinks are running cool and you have good waveform it is a mystery as to why you are having these problems. Have you tried different 10 pin cables? I use premade ones I tried making my own but that did not work out, I need try again and make sure I have the right cable and connectors. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282 |
Good Day Gary, Thanks for the reply Yes I fitted 5k resistor to R46. I feel that the problem is related to the 110VAC between the active and earth . What is expected voltage across Active and earth no load at the inverter ? I tried the scope across the active and earth and it is a nice clean 110vac signal. This voltage 110vac is with no load and measured at the inverter . Cheers john johnmc |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I have never measured earth to the Inverter like that, once connected to your switch box Neutral is bonded to earth so then you would only get 220 from Active to both earth and neutral. Perhaps the 100 - 110 is because the inverter is floating, I don't think it is what is causing your grief. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| wiseguy Guru Joined: 21/06/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1156 |
Hi John good to see you back on task having another crack - if you were closer to SA I would offer to help. If you have any mains filter (capacitors from A & N to ground or a small auxiliary power supply on the mains output that could use these caps to ground they can act as a voltage divider and could cause the 1/2 mains reading you are seeing. Of course with the AC switched off a DVM shows open circuit between A/N & Gnd but to AC its a different story. Maybe its just capacitance from the windings to the core if there is definitely nothing at all connected to the A/N output. There is probably very little current at the 110V available. As Mad said, I dont think this is causing your problem. As an aside, FYI you mentioned some pages ago about spikes you saw after an overload shutdown. I found grounding pin 6 of the 8010 which is supposedly the output enable immediately after the overload, a short time later 3 cycles of PWM briefly appear on the outputs and then nothing until after pin 6 is high again - you were not going crazy the 8010 is not perfectly behaved ! Outputs can appear despite pin 6 being set to low. Pin 6 appears not to be a true enable/disable but to be a software (interrupt?) input and the software has some unexpected behaviours (glitches...bugs). I have built a test jig for the EGS002 and am compiling pictures and notes which will be posted in due course. Although maybe not many are using the EGS002 PCB some of the less desirable behaviour lives in the 8010 itself. Also not saying these issues are your problem either - many here have working inverters, 8010 foibles and all. If at first you dont succeed, I suggest you avoid sky diving.... Cheers Mike |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Hi John, have to agree with Gary there. You should get 0v between neutral & earth and your set mains voltage (220?) between active and earth. Now, keep in mind that the two secondary wires from your toroid have no 'label', they are both 'hot'. As soon as one of them is connected to the house active and the other to the house neutral they assume that designation. lets try working this backwards. You built your inverter and it runs as expected *stand alone*, meaning not connected to your house wiring right? Assuming it has GPO's on it, like mine has, you can plug into that big loads and switch them on and off no problem, right? If so, your inverter is fine, the problem is with your house wiring. Are you connected *anywhere* to mains grid? If so turn off the main switch at the fuse box. Check if you have power anywhere in your house, there should be none. If you find anything 'live' (your inverter is *not* connected) then investigate where it gets power from. Here is how my set up works. Being an electrician I had re wired my fuse box by installing a switch: solar - off - grid. This lets me select from where my house is powered. If I want to work on my inverter (which is running) I turn that switch from 'solar' to 'grid' via 'off' and then go and turn off the inverter. The house is them powered off the grid. The chassis of my inverter is connected to the earth via the 3 core cable that goes from the inverter to the the fuse box. The earth and neutral of both, incoming mains and inverter, are all connected at the neutral link bar, from which an earth wire goes to an earth stake. I have a feeling something is not right there at your place. Please be careful. You might try, if you have a RCD wired in, to connect a filament bulb (25W?) between neutral and earth. It should *not* light up wherever you test. If you connect that between active and earth your RCD should trip instantly. Multimeters, with their very high internal resistance on voltage range, can give you misleading readings. Klaus |
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| wiseguy Guru Joined: 21/06/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1156 |
I decided to post some pictures of pin 6 behaviour. First pic is jig setup  Next pic is overload then pin 6 top trace grounded then output pulses bottom trace (middle of screen) appear (uninvited) a few seconds later, then re-enable pin 6  Finally 2 weird streched pulses in the middle of a pwm train shortly after power up - I have not been able to duplicate again as yet.  If at first you dont succeed, I suggest you avoid sky diving.... Cheers Mike |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I would like to clarify a point here, Pin 6 is not used for overload or at least not on the boards we are using. Overload is triggered by the IFB pin and will not restart unless the overload is reset manually. This is due to the BT136 we have that holds the IFB high. Without the BT136 it will attempt to restart a number of times but after I think 3 times, the only way to get the Inverter to restart is by completely resetting the EG8010 by powering it down and restarting. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
So with the inverter not connected to the house does it do this, or only when connected to house? Have you got a changeover switch like myself and Klaus? If so perhaps leave your power on grid connection and check the connections in the shed, see if the same issue is there. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I don't think John has actually connected the Inverter to his switchboard, from what I can work out he just connected it to a different battery. John, what was the load you had connected when it failed when switching off the GPO? Thinking about your problems and how they keep reoccurring I would be looking at the 10 way ribbon cable. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282 |
Good day all Thanks for the replies , The inverter problem has occurred, both when connected only to the main batteries, and when connected to the house system. It will be a few days, before I will have time to check out the inverter. I will keep you posted . Cheers john johnmc |
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| wiseguy Guru Joined: 21/06/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1156 |
Thanks for adding that clarification. What I wrote was not intended to relate to the inverter circuit directly. I just wanted to highlight that the spikes John noticed were real. I think TinyT noticed them & referred to them as the 3 musketeers. They may also appear after an over or under voltage event or genuine power down restart - current overload was just my way of triggering a shutdown event. The pulses that followed after the timeout period, triggered my CRO alerting me to something occurring even after I had disabled the output enable (with a switch) - quite unexpected and should not not occur. PS - I have not modified the EGS002 board in any way as yet - still a work in progress..... If at first you dont succeed, I suggest you avoid sky diving.... Cheers Mike |
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