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Forum Index : Solar : Solar Farm Practicallity
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| electrondady1 Senior Member  Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
my links don't work very well on this forum but here goes. it's not well publicized but you guys are going to be included in this deal http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/ 2282038/tpp_power_to_the_corporations_at_the_expense_of_the_ planet.html |
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norcold Guru  Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Electrondaddy1, No luck with your link, took me to Theecologist but then Page not found. Antero, No walkabout mate, True Blue`s gone on the wallaby and we don`t know where he are!! Hey you wouldn`t be in the market for a bridge would you? Gotta beauty on the books, great view, plenty of room to hang a few wind turbines off.  We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/ 2282038/tpp_power_to_the_corporations_at_the_expense_of_the_ planet.html Use the Add Hyperlink button  The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Electrondaddy1, Gizmo`s link worked. I will not say it`s alarming cos it`s exactly how Bob has portrayed our system, thus not surprising at all to us fossils. However by "walking the barbed wire fence with a leg on each side", something can be accomplished. It can be shown(hopefully) to high power users, such as farmers in my part of the world that solar can cut their power bills, especially when we have reliable data for my area that shows 1000watts of mono solar can average out yearly at up to 8Kw/hrs per day, even more during the dry when irrigation power is needed. Getting the power utilities on side is the bigger hurdle however. It`s NQ`s inland latitude and long days during the dry that makes solar viable even financially, just have to convince them tis not a con. softly softly. It`ll come, can`t bring change overnight. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Glen Some very serious consequences for the world in general as the commercial gain is powerful lobby and the people are the enviro slaves. The world is like a wooden ship and we all travel on it, but the commercial interest lobby is burning it piece by piece and justifying it by the need for profit to shareholders and backers, but what happens when they get to waterline? the ship sinks. Solar farming is being pushed into the background while the earth destroying high profit enterprises reign supreme. It seems that they are concerned that too much solar will effect their profit, but to hell with the environmental advantages. As the push for higher gas prices spreads the extra 20% is for the profit of the corporations and to hell with the local consumers, they are only profit casualties. It will soon be the norm for a wood stove to be in houses as it was early last century. The progress will have taken the full cycle. A horse and cart rural economy may return, with hi tech devices to make it work better, we no longer have the innovators to develop enviro cars in Australia as they have packed and left the sinking ship, if they do develop anything useful we can import it if we can afford it, when you import from poverty nations you end up in poverty. So much for the level playing field. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
With higher oil and gas prices it can only benefit alternative solutions that automatically get cheaper in comparison. George |
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Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
According the government we have an over supply of electricity caused by to many more expensive renewable sources. So what will they do? protect the investment in old non-renewables? Qld is talking about removing the 8 cents per KWH! There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
[quote] Qld is talking about removing the 8 cents per KWH! [/quote] Will they allow to have NET meter connection, to use some power produced? ( I never thought that 6 or 8 cents per kWH will be too much to pay while they charge about 25 cents or more for the same power produced by them. ) George |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi George They purchase power from the power stations and on sell it to the public so they want the best price they can get to satisfy their commercial ends and bugger the green energy or anyone else that upsets their bottom line Profit is King All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
They claim the wholesale price is 4 cents so they don't want to pay the higher price for renewable power. Politically we are back in the days of joh bjelke peterson, just have to work out who is the bag man. Net metering, you got to be kidding. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
As I see it, not going to achieve much by attacking the politicians or the corporates. The only "honest" way to bring about change is to prove solars viability to the potential customer. Prove it can save them money and supply them reliable power. They are the voters and the customers, thus they influence the politician and the seller. You`ll note above I said honest way. The other way that is guaranteed to work short term but beyond our resources, is to "lobby" polys and utilities as the IWT Co have. The bag man has never left he`s always been there, he just changes his clothes to suit the prevailing "wind". It will not be only in QLD the feed-in price for RE is dropped to the base feed-in price for fossil fuels, that is market reality. Ask yourself honestly why we buy online and on Ebay. Same difference - Market Reality. 
But in the long term the market is controlled by the customer, how do we convince him with very little resources? I am giving it a shot with my small solar system but it is a bit like trying to sell a D9 using a Mini as a demo. We gotta be patient, it`ll come.We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Can I get some figures from a solar panel user to work out the payback figures? I suppose what I need is: Net cost of system kW of system Retail cost of one kWh kWhs produced in one year I am asking for the standard retail cost as a calculation using subsidized feed-in figures is tricky as one only gets paid for what one delivers to the grid, not what one uses in the house. As an aside, here in Perth I see a lot of panels mounted east or north and east as the roof is not big enough on the north side. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Domwild, You would firstly need to find the "solar multiple" for your area. ie. the amount of power produced by 1000 watt in a day average. You can find this on the Clean Energy Authority website. But you`ll find their figures are whilst taken from a 10 year average are very dated . eg Their figures for my area tell me 1000 watt of solar will return me a yearly average of 5000 watthrs/day (5Kwhrs) my figures for the modern mono cells (2 year figures)show that output closer to 8Kwhrs/day. This is fixed cells faced correctly considering your latitude. Save yourself a lot of running around, contact a few of your local accredited solar installers get free quotes for a system ( even do it online), compare and presto you should have all the data you need. On system size I believe for all of OZ you can put a max of 5000 watts of panels grid-fed on household roofs, 30000 watts commercial to access the govt sponsored assistance. Any more you require a contract with your local utility(check their website) or with a power customer through their utility. If in WA the high tarrif feedins (believe to be 60 cents/Kwhr) are still offered you will find it will be a top financial investment. The people in QLD who accessed the now gone 44 cents per Kwhr for their excess, are laughing all the way to the bank. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Dunno about "laughing all the way to the bank", Vic? I reckon the 4X electricity accounts I get yearly are proof enough,---- Adds up to around $120 for my 1050 watt grid connected system ,,been this amount for a few years now ,,so not a lot .. and they look ugly on my terracotta tile roof,thats for sure. Bruce Bushboy |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Bruce, Your $120 per year is that the cash payment you get ie power bills paid by solar plus $120? Or are you saying you only get $120 per year net return? ie $120 off your power bill. If indeed it is your power bill paid plus $120 your doing nicely. In which case your power usage would be below 5Kwhrs/day. A very low usage, the average I believe is around 15Kw/day(no aircon, heating or electric element hot water). I am assuming you are in an area that returns at least 5Kwhr/day (yearly average) off 1000 watts of panels, and your panels are facing north(totally unshaded) tilted at an angle to suit you latitude or close to. If it is $120 your total benefit what % is that of your systems cost? eg if it cost you $2400, 5% is better then current bank interest. Do you have the total Kwhrs per year figures for your system? Am very interested to see your figures, all helps in our understanding of solars potential. Which is something we need to promote, if OZ is to achieve the solar potential we should be. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I know of someone here on the Sunshine Coast who has 6 KW of new panels but limited to 5KW by the inverter. They are getting over 40 KWH per day in fine weather around half that if it is cloudy. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Norcold, The reason I am asking for input from this forum is because the RAC (WA Automobile Club) magazine quoted a solar installer talking about a 26% return on "investment" but when I emailed for details no answer resulted, this is why I prefer not to talk to commercial interests. On TV a commercial installer spruiks an 85% increase in power costs over the last five years. Once again, this would prove another side of the coin: Those "poorer" people, who cannot afford a solar system are subsidising the "rich" ones through higher power costs. Of course, if you are off-grid you have no choice. Anyway, I will read the average figures again quoted in reply to my query before and see what sort of a payback period I can come up with without going into net present value calcs. From memory a friend said he saves about $30/month or $360/year. His system cost $3,000, so $3,000/$360 is about eight years. Looks like a 12% return on investment. His figure may include the 40 cents feed-in tariff, something our WA pollies tried to reduce and probably will, so like a banker I would not "bank" on it, pardon the pun, for it to be available in the future. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Here, here..! is some real numbers about solar and wind energy production, over the years. I live in Finland.. as you know and this country is very.. very north. I have solar panels 11 units X 250W and I have got annually 2500-3200Kwh from them. I use everything to our house. The price for Kwh is here 12-15 cents per Kwh. My Solar system cost; -Used Ice braker batteries NICAD 2000 Ah 24V 1000Eur -2 Units of pure sine vawe inverters 3000W 1200Eur X 2 = 2400Eur -My solar panels 11 X 250W X 135Eur per unit = 1485 Eur My invest to solar system = 4885 Eur With solar power I get savings with own solar produce (2500-3200Kwh) 300-384 Euros per year with the lowest price(0,12Eur/kwh) and with the highest price (0,15 Eur/Kwh) 375-480 Euros per year. I have also 2 units of so called Exmork windgenerators, nowadays huayturbine 2,5-3kw units, to load also my batteries. http://www.huayaturbine.com/ They make energy to me 8500- 13 000Kwh. I live in seaside and have good wind conditions. Average wind speed 5-7m/s. Wind generators cost me with own made masts and all 1750Eur. SO.. My investment to my own power plant, to make FREE pollution-free energy cost altogether; 4885 + 1750 = 6600 Eur investment. Lets say it cost 7500Eur because nobody can remember all the costs. My own working hours.. they are the best time of my life and the best exercise to my body and brain. 1 Euro is now = Australian $ 1,52 and Usd $ 1,36 I get lowest with wind and solar in total 2500+8500Kwh=11 000Kwh I get nowadays when wind speeds are better and summers are longer; 3200+13 000= 162 000Kwh So I get with lowest price and lowest production; 11 000X0,12= 1320Eur per year Nowadays with higher prices and winds; 162 000 X 0,15= 2430 Euros per year. SO I get every year with the lowest price and with the lowest production; 7500Eur low production 1320Eur per year. That is= 17% interest to my invested money tax free..(with taxes you should get MUCH.. more interest to get this )
7500Eur high production nowadays 2430Euros per year. That is 32% interest to my invested money tax free.. WE have 29% tax for interests now, SO you should get 41-42% interest to get TO this. I am a retired shop keeper, in third generation. I have never got interests, even NEAR.. like these, from any source ! Also and perhaps the best "interest" is that I can leave as an inheritance to my children all my experiences and my knowledge about all this, that I have achieved. THEY WILL.. really will need THAT ! BEST investment that I have never made and effort ! (I have self built 22 houses during my life.. etc) In Australia and other sunny places you have SO, SO  !! much better and
easier opportunities to all this. Antero From the land of Polar Nights All my lights are LED, have worked for long time without ANY faults; http://www.ebay.com/itm/10x-E27-7W-LED-Lamp-Bulb-White-Warm- light-Energy-Saving-Bright-/280920807305?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&v ar=&hash=item41682f5789 WE have these A LOT here in Finland ! With very cheap adapters to base E 27 you can fit these to almost any place, lamp.. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&LH_BIN=1&_ nkw=adapters+to+e+27&rt=nc&LH_FS=1 FREE shipping ! |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Anteror, 11x240/1000= 2.64Kw x 8(Kw multiple for my area, mono panels)= 21.12Kwhrs/day X 365(days/yr)= 7708.8 Kwhrs/year in my location (Sunny inland NQ OZ) That is the figure if your panels were here compared to your 2500-3200 Kwhrs/yr. Better then double. We are indeed very fortunate in OZ, your figures show that without doubt, I thank you for these figures. If anyone can show my maths is incorrect, please be forward and do so. The multiple of 8 is for the last 2 years(my area only), the sun has been near max irradiance for this period and this current sun cycle. Domwild, If your friends system is in the same area as you and his unit can be data tracked through a serial or USB port on the inverter. You can obtain accurate data that will show the Kwhrs /yr he produces. From memory the multiple for Perth is a little below 5, eg for Adelaide its about 4.5 but my area the govt specs put it a little over 5. As I`ve stated from a working system data logging near me the actual multiple is 8.1 for its 2 year life so far. Once you have this figure, you can check your utilities website for the feed-in tariff. We on this 4M have members with off-grid and grid-tied systems of varying sizes. We are to a certain extent pioneers with experience to promote solar in our sunny country. My promoting efforts of late have given a range of reactions from very positive to the worst (so far) of "your a greenie what would you know of the real world". To which I softly responded (after counting to 10 or 20 or so in my head) "I`m a practising greenie, please visit me and look at what I have and how it performs"
Dare to be "different" it`s entertaining, challenging and never dull. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
One of factors is efficiency as not all kWh's translate 100% to whatever we use it for. Another thing is that whatever storage system we have, there is some kind of leakage and from what I heard Supercapacitors and NiFe batteries are leaking most. George |
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