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shawn Senior Member Joined: 30/03/2010 Location: New ZealandPosts: 210
Posted: 08:46am 16 Jan 2011
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Hi guys not sure if i should have started a new thread for this but it is food for thought.
I had a big blow last night (100k plus)gusts and woke up during got up to check things and noticed my poor out put on my mill could see gauges 10 amps 24v gusting to 20amps should have been 25 amps gusting to 40 amps could here mill just but to dark to see so went back to bed and woke up to this.
not a bad output for this broken tail couldent have been much swept area for the blades, my fault i used a piece of tin for the end it has been tired for a while just been lasy all fixed up today though and goin great again.
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 09:38am 16 Jan 2011
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Hi Shawn
Great survival story, it lives to make amps again, no other apparent damage so thats good. Would have been interesting to watch if only you could see it.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 01:44pm 19 Jan 2011
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Hi All
We had another storm front come through this afternoon and this silly black duck was able to stand out in the rain to observe the furling action, the following graph shows the wind during the event, and the good news is that the mill was making an effort to furl on the gusts, not a complete furl as the gusts where a bit short in duration but it nevertheless did furl to about 50% and did so in a controlled and non violent manner, that was a big concern of mine but no worries, Thanks Phill, the mill was producing over 1200 watt above 10 ms with no smoke escaping out of my hay wire contraption, so it looks like I will have to tidy it up and put it in a box.
It looks like the mill will be furled by 15 ms, a bit higher than I thought but still in the safe range for structure and electrical output.
The new boost converter arrived today so will fit that and see if it can work OK without the doublers to simplify things a bit. The new boost module is rated at 10 amps instead of 3 amps for the one on there now.
The green trace is the gust speed and the red is the average wind speed.
As you can see the whole thing didn't last long but I was happy with the result.
More storms coming through tonight so I hope not to much more flooding, at least they have got Whivenhoe Dam under control again.
All the best
BobEdited by VK4AYQ 2011-01-21Foolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 12:17am 12 Feb 2011
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Hi All
I have fitted a different boost device to the mill as the first one was getting a bit to hot, as it was rated for 3 amps only, the new one is max rated at 15 amps input for boost, it also cuts in at a higher voltage 10 volts and with a 27.5 volt output, this is adjustable, so I set it up on my adjustable power supply.
Sorry the photo is a bit fuzzy as my camera doesn't like to focus to short.
The device has a little SMD controller running two FET switches and the blue blob is the adjusting pot I got it off fleabay at $15.
Same hay wire circuit as before, just changed to the bigger unit.
How did it go, I was pleased with the results all around, it cuts in at 10 volts as designed against the smaller unit cutting in at three volts, this has had the effect of letting the blades come up a bit faster without load and allowed for a better power capture, the smaller module used to cut in a 100 ma and go th 3 amps, whereas this one cuts in at 1.5 amps and goes to 5.5 amps before the voltage doubler cuts in on the main battery charge circuit. The GTI cuts in at 15 volts and increases to 10 amps at 28 volts.
The result of this is a recovery of 130 watts before the doubler cuts in. The doubler contributes another 1.5 amps, before cut in on the GTI.
Once the mill comes up to working speed the voltage across the boost module equalizes so the power is the going through the main rectifier so no amps through the boost module.
The result is 7 amps through the boost module and the cap doubler in combination a result of 180 watts that wasn't there before.
Does it suit all? It's a case of suck it and see, My friend tried it on his low cut in AXFX and it overloaded the mill, he will be trying it on the higher cut in mill in the future so I will let you know how that goes.
On my little mill its great as it allows me to leave it in Delta for the best efficiency but grab the watts low down as it would in star.
Next job is to neaten it up and fit in a suitable box and fit a larger heat sink to the boost module as it gets a bit warm.
All the best
Bob
Foolin Around
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 03:01pm 12 Feb 2011
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Hi Bob,
I bought the little boost module you mentioned earlier, it works but as it cuts in far too soon the little mill never gets a chance to speed up.
Your bigger unit mentioned above sounds worth a try, any chance to get the part No. details so I can track it down on the net?Klaus
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 06:16am 13 Feb 2011
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Hi Klaus
Info on the booster\
Bob
DC IN 10-32 OUT 12-35V adjustable converter Module Z
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Foolin Around
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Nice looking property you have too, lots of room for projects.
Where's the big HF towers though?
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 05:19am 20 Feb 2011
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Hi Slippy
Lots of room and grass to mow now after the big wet, really keeps me busy.
The wind got the tower last year so have to fix it a bit before it goes back up, building a new shack in the shed so am moving equipment to there, to be fully solar powered, when the heat is over as I don't go to good in the heat, due to the excessive temperature.
Probably throw up a multi band diapole, just looking for the parts I got to build the multi match balun, misplaced them in the move to the shed.
3 element yagi in 5 meters and vertical co linier on 2 and 79 cm.
All the best
BobEdited by VK4AYQ 2011-02-21Foolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 10:26am 21 Feb 2011
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Hi All
Well it finally happened after three weeks no wind, shock horror the wind blew again, 40 MS plus in a storm front this afternoon.
The both mills survived OK, my new mill was furling like crazy at around 15 MS, the old mill was on steroids as it doesn't furl amps 50 +.
The new mill run up to who knows what amps as it cooked the 50 amp meter, the meter went OC with a nice little blue flash. The result was the mill unloaded and the volts went ballistic, over 100 volts dc as thats as high as the meter will read.
All this in turn put the boost module under destructive stress it passed so much current that it blew the printed circuit track to hell, it was vaporised, along with the magic smoke escaping from the caps, and smoking fets very interesting to watch, then the GTI went west as well, didn't like the 100 volts plus, more magic smoke.
Murphy is alive and well.
Fitted a new ammeter and module, and GTI, then the wind went away chuckling.
Will order a new 100 amp meter I think.
I think this event bordered onto Gybersons law.
I keep telling myself I am having fun fun fun.
The main thing is the furling worked well and the mill survived its little scamper on the wild side.
All the best
Bob Foolin Around
Air Bender Senior Member Joined: 25/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 206
Posted: 11:43am 21 Feb 2011
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Hi Bob
If I ever manage to cook a 50 amp meter ill go out and celebrate.
All the best Dean
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 12:43pm 22 Feb 2011
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Hi Airbender
It sounds good but considering the event only lasted 15 min it really dosn't add much to the total energy recovery for the day, on the other hand the little boost module picks up the low wind cycles and the amps slowly add up. Like a tap dripping into a bucket.
It would be nice to have a better wind most times but then some idiot from the government would be here wanting to resume my property for a wind farm.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
dwyer Guru Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 574
Posted: 01:59pm 23 Feb 2011
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Hi Bob
Bob said
It would be nice to have a better wind most times but then some idiot from the government would be here wanting to resume my property for a wind farm.
as l am not quite sure you saying about some idiot come your property did they call in and hope they wont do the same to me other wise l will blow my top off if they come near my small hobby farm taking my freedom , my project away
Dwyer the bushman
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 02:37pm 23 Feb 2011
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Hi Dwyer
What I meant if it was in a good commercial wind harvest area they would be trying to get it by fair means or foul,
The way the wind is at my place i don't have to worry, and neither would you as the range would cause a wind shadow at your place.
Remember we are here to give others ulcers, not to get them ourselves.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303
Posted: 04:50am 24 Feb 2011
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Bob
It makes sense if you don't think about it!! '' ''
All that good smoke and amps getting away, we could have had a barbaq with them.''URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL>
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 11:41am 24 Feb 2011
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Hi All
I had a bit of a quiet day today, so I did some measuring on the boost module on my new mill and the old one as well.
The wind speeds where in a even flow wind and taken on the roof of my shed close to the blades of the windmill.
The new mill started charging at indicated wind speed of 1.8 MS and by 2 MS it was making 1.5 amps 40.5 watts at 2.5 MS the amps went up to 4.5 121.5 watts and by 3 MS it was making 9 amps through the boost module 247 watts at 3.5 MS the mill was making 10 amps through the boost module and 1.5 amps through the cap doubler, 310 watts. above this the main rectifiers came on line and the overall amps went to a maximum for today of 15 amps at 4.5 MS. tats 405 watts.
The boost module slightly overloaded the blades at low speed resulting in a grumble from the mill, with a slight speed increase to 3 MS the mill went quiet, I think the blades where stalling a bit to make that noise.
To get this low speed performance out of the mill is really good and speaks for the efficiency of the alloy blades to make power at low revs.
I have stuck with a delta combination with the mill because I felt that delta was the way to go as it is a more efficient power generation mode, with the boost module it makes up for the lower voltage by boosting to 27.5 volts and makes the whole thing work very well in low winds as I have at my place.
This example is for a 12 volt system but the principal applies across the range of voltages. Courtesy of elenz@windstuffnow.com
There are basically two ways to wire a 3 phase alternator, star ( or Wye) and Delta. With Delta you get lower voltage but more amps. In star you get higher voltage but less amps. You can calculate these by using the square root of 3 ( or 1.732 ). Each coil set is a "phase" of the alternator so when you measure voltage, ohms or current to test one phase of the alternator you would measure the "phase". Once you know what the output will be from one phase you can calculate the "line" output of either delta or star. The line voltage would be measured from any 2 of the 3 outputs. If one phase measured 22 volts in your test and 10 amps then the star configuration would produce 38 volts and 10 amps ( 22 x 1.732 ). The amps remain the same as the phase measurement because the star is basically series'd to another phase. In Delta you would get 22 volts at 17.32 amps (10 amps x 1.73 ). If you calculate this out 22 volts x 17.32 = 381 watts and 38 x 10 = 380 watts... so what is the advantage? Typically the resistance in Delta is 1/3 the resistance of star. If the resistance of star was 1.5 ohms we could calculate the output ( see formula section ). Lets assume the test was at 600 rpm, we achieved 38 volts in star ( about 16 rpm per volt ) so at 1000 rpm we would get 62.5 volts less battery voltage of 12.6 = 49.9 volts / 1.5 ohms = 33.26 amps * 12.6 = 419 watts... not to bad. Now in delta we had 22 volts at the same rpm ( about 27 rpm per volt ). So at the same 1000 rpm we get 37 volts - 12.6 battery = 24.4 volts / .5 ohms = 48.8 amps * 12.6 = 614 watts. Almost a 200 watt gain !!! The advantage of star is the higher voltage at lower rpm which means our unit would have to make 201 rpm to start charging at 12.6V where the Delta would require 340 rpm to start charging.
While this is referring to a different type and voltage generator the principal applies.
This happens because in star there are two windings in effect in series, meaning more resistance in the winding that means more loss and one winding is out of phase with the other winding that induces losses in the phase.
How did the old mill go with the boost module.
it performed much the same but at a higher speed, just on 1 MS faster wind was required for the same output as the new mill. Due to its different blade design it was very smooth no blade stall and low speed noise as it had to go faster to do the same output.
All in all the boost module is a successes on my new mill and also the old one to pull power out where there wasn't any available before.
just a caution for anyone using one the input and output caps are rated at 25 volts while the module is rated at over 32 volts, they where the first thing to fail when the mill had a part load excursion last week, in all fairness it was over 60 volts when they did fail, so they can sustain 34 volts input but for how long?
The other thing is the heat sinking isn't big enough for prolonged loading of 10 amps output, the fet is rated at 55 amps so is capable of quite high power.
When it burned out on me it vaporised the copper track on the circuit board so it was conducting big time.
Also beware of cheap 50 amp meters with a composite ballast internally at 50 amps it wasn't a problem but in overload it just blew the ballast to bits. I have on order a 100 amp meter for this one, so it doesn't blow again.
The shorting switch wouldn't hold the current either it just blew the contacts to bits, I closed it during a furl but when it took up the load again, more magic smoke.
it was a 30 amp switch, I think it would be only any good if the mill was stopped, to stop it accelerating, but with the mill turning even slow it developed enough amps to blow the switch, the furling saved the day, 5 degrees back and 9 degrees to the side seems to work well with the 2.8 meter blades.
Enough waffling on
All the best
Bob
Edited by VK4AYQ 2011-02-25Foolin Around
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 02:12pm 24 Feb 2011
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Bob, may I suggest when you get to a 50A range to do away with conventional Amp meters and get a 100A/ 100mV shunt instead. Its easy to get an economical priced digital meter module (got mine from Altronics) and configure it for the 200mV range.
Of course, these meters need power but its only microamps. Either a 9V battery with a small 5V regulator or (as I use) a 12V to 5V DC to DC converter fed off one of the batteries in the bank works nicely.
I very much doubt that your mill set up is capable to let magic smoke out of a 100A rated shunt Klaus
isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303
Posted: 03:13pm 24 Feb 2011
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Bob
It appears you are thinking too much!URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL>
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 02:43am 25 Feb 2011
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Hi Tinker
I have ordered a separate shunt analogue meter to replace the old internal shunt one, 199 amps as you suggest, I don't have much luck with digital meters i have tried a few but they don't last long, they end up getting a dead segment or the whole display drops out, thats why I try to stick to analogue. Even the one that blew would have been OK is it stayed in its specified range, I didn't think it would go over the 50 amp level with the furling working, but I was wrong.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 02:45am 25 Feb 2011
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Hi isaiah
Just at the moment I have to try and keep busy to keep my mind off other things.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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