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Forum Index : Solar : Solar Farm Practicallity
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Antor Unfortunately Australia is only giving lip service to pollution reduction by exporting pollution to the rest of the world, they have now told us that they are going to close a gas fired power plant near Brisbane because coal gives them more profit because they can export the gas from the power plant, makes you sick, including putting power plant workers out of a job. Getting to the basics, Australia is going under financially and they are desperate to sell anything they can to keep it going a bit longer but the day of reckoning is delayed not eliminated. Car industry gone. Car support industry in trouble. Small engineering firms in trouble. Mining support industry closing up. Mines sacking 20% of workforce. Best farms sold off to China. The rest of Qld in drought with cattle dying and farmers committing suicide. Gas sold overseas instead of using here to reduce pollution. Go solar and wind. Do not rely on governments to solve the problems they only create more problems.They even make it near on impossible to solve the problems of energy by solar farming. Off the soapbox Bob All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Here here! There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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powerednut Senior Member  Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
yeah bob has pretty much nailed that post. The economic situation internationally is looking pretty bleak too. receivership problems in the US, china slowing substantially, japan getting worse, ukraine about to tank. More eurozone issues.... GFC part 2.. good time to sort out your off-grid system and start a huge veggie patch. |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
what your describing is not an accident. it's the effects of corporate globalization it destroys local economies. this secret "trans pacific partnership" their cooking up in the back rooms? sounds as though the entire globe now become the 3rd world. back to the solar practicality angle, it's not clear, are you saying the the Aussie. gov./ power companies, won't pay the same for solar power input as they will for wind power input? |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Powerednut I think it should be everyone's aim to have a independent system for existence both from a power point of view and self sufficiency in the basic needs of life, it will cost, and isn't really a money saving system in the short term but could mean a better lifestyle and satisfaction in the longer term if the now popular wasteful way of life becomes impractical. For those of us in retirement or those approaching retirement it is a goal to aim for, for the younger members it is difficult in the system as we have now but is important to keep in mind as a goal in life, the old Indian saying is to tread lightly on the earth and it will treat you kindly, this is forgotten now as we are encouraged into bigger mortgages and credit card debt that require two or more jobs to cover the interest. Work is concentrated in big cities so people are forced into dormitory situations just to be able to afford to go to work, with little time for self sufficiency projects or not the opportunity to do so in a high rise flat. Jobs are no longer productive in 90 percentage of cases, just administration and sales of imported products, with the exception of the farmers and support industry in rural areas, and the miners rape of resources for export without value added process to get true value from the asset. Money Money Money is the cry of the commercial world and Profit is king but the most is carted offshore for the profit of our masters as Electrodaddy indicated the financial institutions are riding on the Pigs back and we are the pigs. I am not sure what the KWH in feed of wind turbines is at the moment, but solar is between 4 and 6 cents KWH in most places for new contracts, this when they are charging household rate of around 30 cents KWH. In my calculations it would require a 12 cent feed in rate for solar to break even, some will have different figures and add a few decimal points to the equation but the principal is still much the same, and with the constant increase of fees and charges by government and energy sales companies it can only get worse not better. Sale of public utilities to keep the "Titanic" afloat a bit longer, will add costs and diminish returns as has been noted in states already down that road. The future could be bright if powered by solar, and small wind turbines on a personal basis have merit in our efforts so let's do our bit where we can, it will make no difference to the system, or pollution levels in the short term, but in the long term you never know. Keep up the good work everyone. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
We know what the tariff feed in for solar is but be buggered if I can find what IWT`s feed-in tariff is in OZ? Why?????? They have "data" on their web sites showing they are the "cheaper" RE source( taken at a output which is unachievable as shown through SA and Vics recent heat spell) with their figures for solar being nearly three times more expensive then it is. They have and are conning the world, the end result will give RE power a very negative result and increase power prices out of all proportion. IWT`s have their place at good wind sites away from people, Australia has an abundancy of PV solar sites capable of supplying power at peak power usage times. Just look at the OZ 4M members experiences, we have our small wind turbines and our PV solar. The solar produces the bulk of our power requirements(doesn`t it?) but we love to play with wind. Something about those blades in motion appeals to us as it does to the rest of the world. Can you imagine having viewing sites for tourists at PV solar sites, what a yawn, but they flock to IWT`s, with the local proposed IWT site proposing a restaurant on site even. Good on them get some tourist dollars too.  We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
I remember when the first wind farm went up on our farm and our neighbours', the developer had grand plans to set up a café and interpretive centre as well as a mini-bus tourist operation so people could get "up close and personal" with turbines and even give them a hug. I think the bus operation lasted a week and the café never turned a sod. People just said "ho hum". We even got paid $100 to allow the bus to enter our property (real big of them!). I don't remember the bus ever coming to our farm. Individually or in small numbers, wind turbines certainly do have a degree of fascination. Its a bit like comparing a slide show to a movie - we all know what we would rather watch. As to the efficacy of wind? You all know that we are totally "off grid" and the wind turbine is there to "fill the gaps" on cloudy days. The only problem is that on cloudy days, there is generally bugger all wind and when we have wind, we have more solar than we need, so the turbine is there only for its good looks and because we wanted one to play with. Just like our little turbine, the IWTs are for the same reason, little better than toys. At least one saving grace of the our little 500 watt turbine is that it doesn't produce any low frequency and infra sound. I went for a walk at the beach near Adelaide airport yesterday and saw three wind turbines at the sailing club about the 500watt mark. Two were upwind HAWT and one was a darrieus VAWT - the two HAWTs were going like cut snakes, but the VAWT was barely turning. Doesn't say much for VAWTs. I can't understand why anyone would persevere with a VAWT. I guess it is a bit like the perpetual motion thing. People want to believe. Or perhaps, back yard art? IMO, wind power will never work until some efficient storage system is devised. Batteries? I don't think so. Super capacitors? I don't think so there either but maybe a better chance than batteries. David M. |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
David, Thought all them GT`s would flock to them to admire and worship.
Have you any idea what feed-in tariff they get? I just meet a brick wall every time I ask such a very relevant and straight forward question, dodge quicker then a dodgem car at an amusement park. Imagine if instead of those fans in SA & Vic, solar PV of equivalent value(not max projected output, fans that is) was installed would they have produced more power during your recent hot spell?(maybe even in the shade) That question should be answered by your SA authorities, and all GT`s, but will never be.
Solar PV is practical, safe and viable right now in OZ, without batteries they`ll feed the peak power usage times. Stop the world and let me off. 
We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
I can't get an answer either even though I have a couple of tame Vestas maintainers as neighbours. As I understand it, Each wind farm operator negotiates a purchase price contract with the base load (coal, gas etc) generators who are mandated to buy around 20 to 25% of their power from wind/solar. These purchase agreements are legal contracts and as such are subject to the expected confidentiality clauses. Hence the tight lips. On top of the Purchase contracts, RE companies receive around $24 per megawatt hour produced whether it is used or not. If you do your sums, that adds up to heading on towards $1million per turbine per year and what ever the solar systems get on a similar scale. The solar is hard to work out because different houses have agreements with different energy companies with different purchase agreements and different individual (per house) "feed in" rates. No one is telling anyone what their agreements are most especially with wind. True to a fair degree and certainly more predictably than wind, but wind will still produce at night when the solar won't, it is just such a shame that when it does, there is generally little demand. I think solar output drops off a little too fast at the end of the day for the fossil fuel (solid) generators to ramp up to maintain a steady grid. I'd love to see just how big a "battery" storage system would be for say a 3.5Mwatt wind turbine multiplied by the number of turbines connected. I know how big my roughly 20KWHr FLA system is. I understand that a NiFe system would be even bigger? The mind still boggles. David M. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Vic and Mobi Watch the ABC news tonight as There are comments from the RE meeting going on now, one interesting one was that there is a excess of electricity available overall, so I gathered from that that they do not want any more power input. So much for the clean and green approach. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Mobi I think the size of the battery backup is blown out of proportion as it is needed to supply several hours in the evening and they have enough infrastructure to supply off peak with what they have now. Wind and other sources would come in for the transition and off peak. Here in Brisbane they use a second dam at Whivenhoe to pump up to and run the turbine from it in peak times not very efficient but it works. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Clean and green? All they want is black and dirty! There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
I am sure that there are vested interests on both sides of the energy fence when it comes to the dash for cash. I am equally sure that we all want electricity on demand at an affordable price, just as we all want to drive our cars and fly our planes. What ever happens, for the foreseeable future whether we like it or not, the bulk our electricity is going to come from burning of fossil fuels. It would be a shame to throw away good money on a failed technology by a knee jerk reaction when that same money could have been spent on properly researched energy saving practices and energy storage methods. Renewable doesn't equate to green. Bio-diesel is renewable but not green, just as forestry is also renewable but not green. Wind and solar just happened to be there at the right time and place. No one bothered to thoroughly examine the ramifications of the technologies' economics or efficacy. We all have our opinions and ideologies. My wife and I have just spent three nights in Adelaide and have one more to go. We have had three delicious sleeps. Unfortunately we know what we are in for when we get home. That is a dirty side of so called green technology that the general public is being encouraged to deny but unlike mobile phone towers, this one is not going away. It has been measured and proven. David M. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Mobi It is true that things are not green as we bandy the word and thought around, but let us call it less obtrusive on the environment, and do the least possible damage to the environment.Wind Water and Sun provide an alternative to Oil gas and coal and Also Atomic energy. The vested interests on both sides of the divide have valid points to make, a balance between grass roots and rabid commercialism is possible on a personal level, and that is what I feel should be encouraged as we on this and other forums do. Leading by example and surviving quite well under adverse situations will attract a lot of interest, and when commercialism fails or becomes unaffordable to the average person the ones living a quite life with most of the necessities of life will attract others to the fold. Things on this earth are there to be used and if done in a sensible and economical way there is little damage to the environment, it is when the overuse and rape of assets is the primary means of making corporations rich the long term is sacrificed for profits, and most of the things they sell of are finite resources. Glad you enjoyed your break from the sub sound at home, you may have to get an underground home built on the farm. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Jarbar Senior Member Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
This may have some relevance to those interested in this thread. Anthony Dear BZE supporter BZE's recently released Zero Carbon Australia Buildings Plan shows the potential for 33GW of roof top solar photovoltaics (PV) across Australia. Solar PV industry advisor & outspoken advocate, Nigel Morris, will speak on: - PVs growing and remarkable contribution - The growth of underlying PV markets - Why it’s getting harder to connect - PV cost trajectory and rationalisation - Why the RET is awesome and needs to be saved! Nigel will join us via Skype. Time: 6:30 - 8pm Monday 3 March 2014 Fritz Loewe Theatre (entry via level 2) McCoy Building University of Melbourne Cnr Elgin & Swanston Streets, Carlton http://bze.org.au/events/discussion/ "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Game world ? Stock market game world, options, futures etc Just BULsh*t in our time now !! Nothing to DO !! with REAL economy in this world, anymore ! Continued economic growth, consumption AS we know there is no other way in human nature, NOW ! There was a tiny, tiny.. little error, the size of a grain of sand in our DNA, to make us like this. SO ?? Only thing that will save us is very, VERY !! rapid rise of intelligence and IQ, to understand.. THIS error and greedy "animals".. dominate our home planet now ! ARE you just ?????.., or HUMANS !! To REALLY connect us with the only thing that keeps us alive in this planet, CONNECTING NATURE Nature gives us all in our economy and in every sense, finally. IF we do not HERE and now, understand this and with fundamental way ? Here, here Antero |
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| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Jarbar, Very relevant, ton of info on BZE and behind Nigel Norris. David, Possibly of interest from the Clean Energy Regulator Stats. SA have the most residential roof top solar by installed capacity with Qld down the list. However Qld`s roof-top solar is by far the bigger producer in OZ, guess its our latitude that explains this. Currently the NT has not a lot of residential solar or they`d be on the top. That $24/ Mwhr is that the LGC contribution ? (Large Generator Certificate) Using dams to pump up into when excess power is produced is a practical and as Bob mentioned existing "battery". Looked at compressed air and using water for my own excess power produced. Would not be that large a investment to have a water tank on hill and one on the flat(location,location,loaction), pump and hydro-turbine and presto battery. Would be possibly cheaper then the 1200kgs of lead-acid battery I have. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Very relevant INDEED ! Pumps and pumping heh heh ! Just survive there. This ALL discussion is just:::: ?? waste of time, that you have left !! Use it with your family and children. WITH new 300 000 new jets that will mutilate and pollute our sky and the air we breathe Next year there will be about douple amount jets in the air.. etc Atmospheres destroyers, with tax free fuel etc SO ? JUST breed for THE last time pure air .. HEH ,here here COAL mining is ingreesing too, as you Australians are doing and Chinese etc Here is THE REAL picture for our future, like in Peking smoke..; https://www.google.fi/search?q=peking+smoke+now&espv=210&es_ sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=7Z0CU-tXsKfIA-b4gJA M&ved=0CGAQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=785 Is there any rain anymore in Australia and water ? You should do somenthing, too OR are you.. just like Tony Blair, American toy dogs, tamed.. ?? JUST sell anything, and at any cost now. AS you know the question is bigger Antero |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Master SMOKE chefs, of Australia ? AS your very good chefs George, Mat etc say, time is running out 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 and hands out You should be pioneers in your island state, isolation from the rest of the world. Solar power, that you REALLY have etc SO.. 10,9,8,7.... Antero |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
IS there any Crocodile Dundee spirit left.. ? in you ?? That would really BE something significant in this matter ! WAlKABOUT, that we ALL should do, in our lifes ! You Australians and Aboriginals have a LOT, to give us ALL. I also give special thanks to Ray Mears. He has documented very good survival stories in Australia and in very many other places too, with natural powers and understanding etc https://www.google.fi/search?q=ray+mears+australia&espv=210& es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=MLACU_aKMoKKyAPL uYCACA&sqi=2&ved=0CGIQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=785 As you know, best way to heal.. about everything, is that you tell to as In Walkabout Creek, to somebody.., and he tels that to everybody. THIS is just what this internet is; WALKABOUT !! You, decide how to Antero |
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