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Forum Index : Windmills : Servo motor for wind turbine
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| bvan1941 Newbie  Joined: 06/05/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 24 |
Warpspeed, Thanks,so that's what they look like. Neat!! I'm going to really look into these, Mike says he's used them for his units without any bad outcomes. I can't believe how much combined knowledge is available through the Forums. It's amazing really. Thanks for the pix- It's worth a million words! Bill Bill |
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Don B Senior Member  Joined: 27/09/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 190 |
Bill, The web address for the Australian supplier of timing belt items is www.naismith.com.au. I believe that the belts that they sell are sourced from Gates, and probably many of the pulleys, etc come from the USA anyhow. I am sure that there must be comparable US suppliers. Even so, the data available on the Naismith site is very helpful once you become familiar with the way belts etc are categorised. They also cheerfully furnished technical advice for an application that I had. Regards Don B |
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| Warpspeed Guru  Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
And don't forget that many overhead cam engines use the now standard 8mm pitch timing belts. Both the belts and pulleys can be obtained secondhand from auto graveyards for a small fraction of the cost of new. The most common size you will find will be a 24 tooth crank pulley, and a 48 tooth cam pulley. Obviously more or less teeth are possible on either, but in practice size and space limitations dictate a 24/48 tooth ratio on about 99% of engines you will find. The belts will be far too long, and the standard automotive pulleys have horribly inconvenient bore sizes, but they are cheap and readily available, if you are clever enough to adapt them. To buy brand new off the shelf commercial toothed belt and pulleys, expect to pay several hundred dollars. So make sure you are sitting down when you ask for a quote. While building wind machines is not not in my prior experience, building supercharged engines certainly has been, and both use very similar hardware if you are thinking toothed belt drive, so the field is not completely unfamiliar to me. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Don B Senior Member Joined: 27/09/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 190 |
On the cost of timing belts and pulleys, I purchased 6 off 5 mm pitch ribbed and flanged steel pulleys about 75 mm diameter plus taper lock bushes plus 3 off 610-5m-15 HTD belts for $236, including postage, from Naismith. While I concede that they were very generous with their discounts, I thought the pricing most reasonable. I can't locate their figures at the moment, but I believe that, with these pulleys operating on a 1:1 ratio at 1,600 rpm, the power transmission capability of the 15mm wide belt was over 1 kW. As belt strength is a dominant factor, power transmission capability will be proportional to belt speed and section, all other things being equal. While using ex automotive components is certainly feasible, and a 2:1 step up a handy ratio, there might well be significant bother in adapting the pulleys to wind generator application. The belt should also be no larger in section than needed for the power to be transmitted, or there will be extra losses. I would certainly check the cost of both options if you are looking for a step up drive. One final comment is that you need to keep in mind that the larger the diameter of your turbine, the slower that it will turn in a given wind speed. Without a step-up, you might miss out on much of the wind power that is available from your turbine at modest wind speeds Regards Don B |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Yes indeed, but it is bother versus dollars. As a retiree, I would rather spend two hours on my lathe than spend $200.00 It is all relative. Cheers, Tony. |
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| lakesidepark Newbie Joined: 07/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 1 |
Hello, first post. Been following the servo conversation, and thought I might be able to share what I know about these things (more about their construction and original use than the 'reapplied' use seen here - but may still be useful information). I have started hobbying on my own wind turbine. For now I am sticking to VAWTS, as I have been tied up in a lawsuit with neighbors and the county (we won finally). I don't want to hear the codes inspector come over with some wild story about a loud humming turbine on a 100-ft tower knocking turkeys and eagles down in piles, and I'm sure that is what they will be told when I place the first small VAWT. TO the point of the thread, I have my hands on several servos scrapped from rebuilds. I have enough to keep me busy for years. The first ones I will be testing when I get my mill up noted below. So I provide some information for those shopping and learning what these things are about. The amp ratings on the motors as follows (all 200VAC 3-phase 1500RPM) 450W (new style) = 3.8A continuous / 2.84 N-m inertia 850W (old style) = 6.2A / 5.39 N-m 850W (new style) = 7.1A / 5.39 N-m 1300W (new style) = 10.7A continuous / 8.35 N-m inertia (Newton-meters) they are not all, I got a bunch of smaller 3000RPM (not as useful), one large 3.5kW 1000RPM (getting there) and one 6kW (power the house???). FYI all yaskawa servos. They are very comparable to the more popular Fanuc, but harder to get, as they don't fail as much heh heh (a little prejudice there I know - I still remember a promo video of Fanuc robots panhandling for work and then committing suicide after they are pushed off the production line by newer yaskawas - a funny video). No brakes, just encoder on the back, easy to remove, and leaves a shaft stubby that can couple a second motor (maybe idea for the smaller servos). A picture below of an older 850W and a newer 450W (the 450 scrapped for the large bearing and flange - I have a couple of each): 
The newer stators are sealed. But I found the star connections on the older stator, and the three coils of each phase are paralleled at the star and the Amphenol connector. The plastic-epoxy whatever of the newer stators cannot be cut, melted, or burned. But if you heat it up it becomes more brittle, and you can chip away to uncover the star junction. The 450W is also 9 coils (3 parallel coil sets) star connection. The rotor on the 450W has two rows of 9 mags each with a very small offset to overlap the magnet gap. I did not remove the rotor on the 850 since I wanted to get the wires out and recenter the shaft quickly. The 450 in the pic is scrapped for the front bearing flange. The 850 is an old style, the rear is pictured, the front bearing is at least twice the diameter as pictured on rear. When shopping for servos, I would suggest finding the newer ones, but the older ones may be easier to use independent phase rectification since the stator wires are less work to locate. The new servos are half the size for the same rating, the stator is the same diameter, and the bearings in all of them are so oversize I never see them wear out in their 1500RPM usage, so they should hold up well even as direct drive with a prop on the end. Hope this adds some info to the servo discussion. |
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| bvan1941 Newbie Joined: 06/05/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 24 |
lakesidepark, Welcome to the discussion! Thanks for the info and hope you continue to contribute more whenever you can. Bill Bill |
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isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
lakesidepark WELCOME ABOARD Keep checking back as we will have questions from time to time. some of are retired and dont move as fast as we use to and the funds dont let us do what we would want at time so it takes us a while on some projects. Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| bvan1941 Newbie Joined: 06/05/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 24 |
lakesidepark, Several questions. Have you made a W/T of any of your units yet? If you have, do you find the current output greater than what is normally found on the data plate? (I believe the listed current rating would be for (1) phase) Another question, Does the rpm's/volt really follow a somewhat liear curve throughout a rise in rpm's? Mike and Adam are both experienced Servo users and staunchly support their use as a generator and that current output, exceeds what's listed. I'm a believer and believe the listed current should roughly be(3)times what's listed on the dataplate. I'm in the process of building my first Servo W/T and hope to add my findings too. Bill Bill |
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| bvan1941 Newbie Joined: 06/05/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 24 |
Warpspeed or anyone that knows the asnwer-- I tried talking to people around here and checked on the McMaster Carr Site for the "Taper-Locs." People around here obviously never saw what you described(or understand exactly how they work --either!)Prices they quote > $75-$90 ! Don't want to order and be wrong. I'm not sure how to be exactly quote what size I need to a catalog Site either. Specifically the taper size,and how long it's supposed to be, etc. HELP--- I'M LOST! Bill Bill |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Things may be very different in the US. But in Australia, if you go to any company that sells electric motors, sprockets, pulleys or ball bearings, or any type of industrial drive hardware, they will all know exactly what taper lock fittings are. Maybe Americans have a different name for them. That would not surprise me in the least. I have asked the question on a US welding Forum. Those guys will know. http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?p=833451#post833451 Cheers, Tony. |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Yeah Tony might have a point there, some countries do have a completely different name for the same thing. The Taper Lock is the ideal solution, they are easy to fit and very secure. But, if you have no luck you could use a standard pulley, preferably steel, and get someone with a lathe to machine it out to fit the servo's shaft. It wont be as perfect a fit as a Taper Lock, but windmills run at low RPM, so you can get away with a little offset. So long as the blade tips are within a couple mm, it will be fine. While the pulley is on the lathe, ask them to machine the front side flat to make it easier to mount the blades/hub. A quick machine job like this should cost you less than $100, plus the cost of the pulley. The best person to help you would be a auto-electrician/mechanic/farmer with a metal lathe. They have to do a lot of "thinking out of the square" when fixing old machinery, miss matching components, etc. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
try changing to the 'image' option in google instead of 'everything' and do a search for 'taper lock pulley' or 'taper lock hub' you will soon find a US company that will have a parts/spec list that can be downloaded. Once you get your eye in you will find all sorts of options 
taper lock bush taper lock sprocket The taper lock bolt on hubs are particularly versatile, but you need to hold one in your hands to see if it has a surface that can be gripped with a lathe chuck, if it needs to be modified. This is a far better solution than cutting keyways and fitting grub screws. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Blackwoods, Blackwoods the parts supremo's here in Oz -telephone for a catalogue Bruce. Bushboy |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
this forum post from home shop machinist forum has a few explanations and brand names to look for in the US yahoo its worth following the link to the ribbed pulley post , it is amazing what they will drive. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Three responses so far from that US welding Forum. All three confirm they are called "taper locks" in America. Cheers, Tony. |
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| bvan1941 Newbie Joined: 06/05/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 24 |
Warpspeed,Gizmo,Yahoo2,brucedownunder2, Thanks for the quick response,additional info and the leads. I'll read and follow up on these. There is a motor / electrical supply house in the next town,I'm going. The local's here need to get out more often !! You hit the mark about "asking a Mech. or a Farmer, they DO have to think out of the square." Soo right!!! Forum's great for scope and depth of knowledge. Bill Bill |
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97fishmt Regular Member  Joined: 19/04/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 77 |
I'm sure you can't beat ebay. I've been using and have good luck with 1610 and 1615. There are plenty of other models but I've got really good deals with these two. The 1610's are 1" deep and the 1615's are an inch and a half. So for me 1610's work great for 5' to 10' props but 1615's have more shaft to hang onto. My new 13'er I used a 1615. Mike |
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| Don B Senior Member Joined: 27/09/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 190 |
If you are trying to match a tapered shaft, be aware that many tapers will be standard Morse tapers. These go by numbers (Nos 1, 2, etc), and the numbers dictate the diameters of the start and finish of the taper. I believe that the taper angle is the same for any size taper. Look up Morse tapers on the internet, and this will give you these dimensions in your favourite measurement units. Assuming that your taper is a standard Morse taper, this will simplify ordering your taper lock hub once you track down a local supplier. Regards Don B |
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| bvan1941 Newbie Joined: 06/05/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 24 |
To everyone, thanks for the help with "taper locs." Just recieved my servo back from the shop. I have learned a lot since asking the question about taper locs. Learned my servo has the standard taper as the taper on the "Powermax" blade hub, that simplified the solution, because they matched up! Additionally the machinist welded a large nut to a female threaded piece that screws onto the shaft threads and locks the hub tight to the servo shaft. Problem solved. Found that the #1610 taper loc Mike used, would work on mine too. I will keep knowledge of this little tool in my pocket for the next project. So again folks-- thanks for the help !! Bill Bill |
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