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Forum Index : Windmills : Vawt...going in a big way
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fillm Guru  Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Mac, As pointed out by others, I would also be concerned about belt drives, especially with the power you could be dealing with here . Murphy will always visit when no one is at home. Have you considered using a car diff and modifing it to drive in reverse by mounting it vertical, it would give you a number of options with ease of mounting an existing brake ( disc or drum ) , also give you a step up in output rpm as well as a right angle drive output. With a good solid drive shaft between the diff and the turbine drive it would put everything down near the base and could allow you to mount your alternator ect outside if needed. By using a popular vehicle diff it would also give you cheap parts, drive couplings etc from car wreckers. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
fillm, and everyone, I here you, I read you'r words of caution and concern, and take note. I have thought of this route and others as well, and decided that as a "experimental project" that the least expensive would be to use as many parts and pieces as possible that I have on hand, within reason. After the mill is up and running and I have completed testing to determine its capabilites and limits, I can then determine the best possible long term drive-train. One I've been thinking of would be a low speed home built generator simular to what has been mentioned by another forum member of The Back Shed crew. This would eliminate much of the drive train altogether. The problem, is testing to find the working capabilities first, so I have an idea of how big and how slow it needs to be. This is the first stage of the project...I'm sure many changes and upgrades will follow. Thank you for pointing out the potiential failure of the belts. There are three kinds of men in this world, 1.) The ones that learn by study, reading, and testing, 2.) The ones who learn by observation of others, 3.) The rest of us who piss on the electric fence to find out first hand, for themselves. .....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
3) ooowww done that not the way to learn, better to learn from others mistakes to minimize pain All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Mac46, You may not have noticed but you are a senior member in this group of distinguished DIY' ers, 102 posts already, I believe Gismo should give you a balloon or an extra Star for the rapid rise to the peasant level. Hang in there and keep us informed. it is rare that a Turbine of this size shows up on the Back Shed and there are many who would like to see a VAWT blowing Fuses on the Inverter. I too have negative thoughts about using drive belts, the bending resistance will take a toll on the torque output. But at the same time I can understand that the family welfare is Priority One. and what is available to work with is the Code of Home Grown Power. Best to you from Seattle! Cheers ! ---- Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Greenbelt, VK4AYQ, and everyone, Yes the "senior member", I did notice this yesterday, I sat and looked at it for a moment and wondered about it, thought it must have been a mistake or something. I also have negative thoughts about the drive belts, but for now this is the route I've chosen to take. I can minimize the potiential of failure by running the mill only when I'm around, but thats no fun, really. I've also thought about setting up a overspeed switch that will automaticly apply the break and stop the mill in the event that a belt gets thrown off. I also talked with the manager of the farm store about buying the used batteries, it was a no go for him, would'nt allow it. The desulphinator has'nt arrived here yet...should have been delivered sometime yesterday. Thank you "The Back Shed", for the "Senior" statis...I don't deserve this ranking. I have'nt the experiance with talking to a group. And just to clear things, I have'nt pissed on a electric fence either. However, being the youngest of 4 brothers, I was always the one elected to touch the eletric fence after instillation each fall to see if it was working properly...after that first time, I got to where I would grab ahold of it without flinching and say to my brothers, no...not working, go ahead and try it for you'r self. We were a cantankerous bunch. Then ofcourse, not trusting me, they had to touch it to see for them selves that it was or was'nt working. This even worked on my younger sister...once. Recived a good whipping over that one, still remember that. Thanks to everyone for joining in on the project. .....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Mac46, It isn't how smart you are or are not, Its a matter of behaving yourself long enough to post a hundred packets of gibberish.  Cheers--RoeTime has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Green belt, Well I thank you for that, I chuckled when I read you'r post. Thank you for gathering me in to you'r group of distinguished "DIY"ers", I've been told by a certain "women", "That no man can possibly remember as much as he knows"...I had to think about for awhile. Kind of puts things into prespective, and a different point of veiw is'nt always a bad thing. I'll try to behave myself. As far as gibberish goes, I'll try to keep things factual and honest. I've been in the shop today working on a variable speed hub. I want to be able to adjust the speed of the alternator independantly from the speed of the mill. This will help me see how much power and torque it has at different rpm's. Thanks for joining in everyone, .....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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rissole Newbie  Joined: 10/05/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 15 |
hi there mac congrats on the project so far (and the stars) I'm following it with great interest. On the subject of broken belt protection (you have to use protection ??)I came accross a nice little arrangement in a couple of clothes driers that I had in the shed the other day, they both had the same components even thought they were different makes; a small pressed steel arm with a plastic roller, an extension spring to pull the roller against the belt and a cute little plastic bracket thst fixed the other end of the spring to the base of the drier, this bracket incorporated a set of contacts that were held closed by the belt tension spring, this turns off the motor if the belt breaks.I know it's only electrical, but a clever bloke like you may be able to put it to use. any way I just thought that I would mention it. keep up the good work mate! Rusty |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
rissole,and everyone, Thank you, thats a rather keen and clever idea you have, shouldn't be hard at all to set something like this up...when the contacts demate the circuit switches on the main break and puts the stops to the turbine. Yes, "the stars" were an early gift I think, but very much appreciated and unexpected, Thanks for the congrats on everything, and thanks for the tip on the contact switches. Hey, my new battery desulphorator came late this afternoon, I have it on one of my big batteries from the bulldozer right now. Its pinging away doing its thing. rissole, thanks for joining in on the project, don't hesitate to comment on the project at any time in the future. Same goes for everyone and anyone. .....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Mac46 This may be coming along too late, but is there any way you can build something on the order of maybe using flyweights on the main shaft to, at some pre-determined speed, adjust the angle of attack on each blade? What I'm talking about is to somehow pull the leading edge out of the flow (or push the trailing edge into the flow) so the blade merely coasts and does not grab any air. This type of "governor" approach has been used with HAWT for years, however a problem seems to be created in that if each blade is not EXACTLY alighned as the rest, a wobble is created and the thing begins to shake apart. Considering that a VAWT will be moving much, much slower, it may be of no ill effect, I duno. Food for thought at least. @ rissole: Welcome to the 4m. There are two Macs here; I'm the other one. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
MacGyver, Hello and welcome Mac, That is a good question and a good idea. Something simular to the pitch control of a helicopter. Well yes it is posible, however I have the wing pitch set at 8 degrees and each wing is bolted at this setting. It would take a redesign effort on the center axil to allow for the control rod and gearing, but yes it is possible. Even though this mill is turning at a slower rpm, the weight of each wing is much heaveyer, and so the same types of out of balance forces will come into play. I would imagine that maybe wing flaps, or alierons, may be something to look into as a solution, rather than trying to twist the wings. However the wings may not be strong enough to handle the pressure and forces created by adding flaps. There are 3 other mounting points already on the mill,spoilers, or flaps, could be mounted on these to create drag at a set rpm, This is something I will think about. I have'nt even tried one rev. under its own power yet, There is much to be discovered, and lots of testing to be done. .....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Hello everyone, I have been in the shop for the past 3 days just, more or less not makeing any progress on the mill. The new desulphinator has arrived and I have been absorbed with it and working on batteries. I never realized it before, but being on a farm with all the equipment, its pretty easy to count out over 20 batteries in total. Tractors, combine, big truck, pickup, bulldozer, ect. ect.// A person would think that I would have had a pretty good working knowledge of battery maintance. No, not me. Seems like I've been buying a new battery or two each year, Primarly because I don't maintain the full charge during off use times. It is prudent to pull the batteries out and store them where I can keep an eye on them, where they are regularly cycled and recharged, kept clean, and not exposed to subzero temperatures. The addition of a battery desulphinator and trickle charger will, (as it appears), save me a few hundred dollars each year in replacement costs. Easy to figure that it is worth the effort. Thats my 2 cents worth for today. .....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Hello Everyone, I experianced another serious thunder storm yesterday. I happened to be in the garage/shop at the time it hit. Driveing sheets of wind driven rain, the whole works...looked and felt like a hurricane outside. I had no damage to the mill as it was in its parking clamps, but I had 2 and 3 inch diameter size limbs broken out of the trees, ect. ect. The alfalfa was blown flat in the hay field, but I expect it to recover in a few days. This adds more confidence to the strength of the wings and the upper framework, and to the foundation anchor's of the mill its self. I don't know what the wind speed was, but it was excessive. I'll be working in the shop again today. .....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Everyone, For some reason it was difficult to get into the proper form today, finely got something going. I fabricated the next power shaft, brgs, and shives, to drive the alternator...did'nt get it installed and did'nt take any pictures. Its been another "Mr Murphy day". The weather radio says another severe storm is comeing for tomorrow. ( I have 3 battery chargers and the desulphinator going) and so far, I have revived 6 old batteries enough that they will atleast hold a full charge now, however the 2 starting batteries for the bulldozer each have a dead cell. Don't know if I'll be able to bring them back to usefullness or not. I figure that if I buy 2 new ones, then the 2 old ones will come out of it and be ok. They are "Natulas" gold series, Marine deep cycle,12 volt, and I have'nt found the rateing, must be in the code numbers, but they are high dollar batteries. I may gather up 4 of the other 12 volt batteries I've revived and team them up. Thats all the giberish for today, thanks for checking in. .....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Everyone, I have been busy on other things lately, sorry for not continueing this post. I did get to town, picked up 2 more 6 volt, deep cycle batteries and misc. bits. I have been working on setting up a test stand in the shop to check out the alternator. I want to see that it works ok before installing it on the mill. No progress on the break system, have'nt given it a thought lately, busy with everyday stuff's. I'm going to have to address this break system because it'll be the only thing left on the list soon. I'm getting closer...stay tuned everyone. ....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Hello Everyone, I tested the alternator in the shop and it checks out ok. I installed the alternator brackets, belt, brgs, and the alternator this afternoon. I don't have it wired up, and probably won't for a least a day or two. I have a picture in my photo file but don't have it resized yet. ....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Hey Everyone, this is a picture of the drive system includeing the alternator. I believe this is a 65 amp model. You can't believe how tempting it is to unbolt the parking clamps...and give her the first try. I've got the wind, but no breaks, so its a no go for today. I'm really getting the itch to give it a try. Now, as Gizmo stated in an earlyer post, "I'm getting as nervous as a frog in a blender". (Getting so close to running). Tune in again tomorrow, thanks for visiting. ....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
G'day Mac, With my first motor conversion I did wonder as it was predicted 100K + winds were due to hit us should I take the tower down or just let her go. I left it up and watched the amp gauge as those winds hit and man did the genny love those high winds. These days when I can hear the blades topping 500 rpm from the house I run upto the shed to watch the output. Go on be game and let that big vawt go and see what she can produce in a high wind. If it does break apart well give Murphy a kick where needed....(Murphy don't take this too hard). Cheers Bryan |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Bryan1, and Everyone, I researched the "GM alternator" last evening...I have the alternator set up to turn backward, I'm going to have to fix that. Also, the paticular model is rated at 63 amp max. output, not 65 amp. that I posted earlyer. I have the break to install, the cluch linkage, batteries, wireing, ect. ect. so I still have a fair amount of work ahead of me yet. The gearing ratio,"for those of you who are wondering", is 7.2 to 1 , my best guess at the moment, I don't know how well the wings will perform. This is likely to be geared alittle "tall", and I anticipate adjustments will be needed. I've read that it takes 1 hp. to generate 20 amps-12 volt, (approximately). I can sit here and speculate all day, but it won't get me any closer to produceing power, and will just waste our time. Bryan1, thanks for following my posts. I appreciate you'r involvement in this project, as I do everyones. This is all new terrain to me. ....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Everyone, Wet weather has returned, or should I say continues in my area. Lightning especially has dictated that I stay away from the project. I've done further reserch on the GM 10 SI alternator and find that it is also offered in a model that has a built in tacometer port. The alternator I have dos'nt have this opp. This would be a real good thing to have. I have also refreshed my studies on the "Proney Break"...(not "poney"), this is a method of torque/hp measurement. ( Google it for more info). I am in the phase of the project where I have'nt refined or thought to much about, The belt drive system is rather crude and primative, and has its disadvantages. Many of you have cautioned me about this, and for good reason. For all the wet weather and high wind in this area, the wings seem and look like they are just fine. This is where alot of my study was focused. I would have to imagine that they are soaking up atleast some of the moisture. Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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