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Forum Index : Windmills : F&P@PE
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
My F&P windmill now has a new heart. I have exchanged the delta wired series100 for a rewired series80 7s2p, wired in delta. The performance is no different to the series100, with the cap system in place. The stator has the 10degree pole twist and the hum is slightly quieter. If you have a 24V system, I would not stress out too much looking for a series100 stator as the rewire is perfectly servicable. The next stage is waiting for a lull in the wind so I can start on the adapter plate for testing of new wooden blades. I have some more wood, so a few more blades are on the cards. The 2pak sealant should now be hard enough for final sanding and painting of the first set. These have flown for the better part of a week now and are almost as good as the Lakota. The increased average blade angle has resulted in slightly more torque, with a slight blade noise at high power levels. These will probably work on the F&P mill as well. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Has been windy today. The mods to my F&P mill with the series80 stator has given no additional output power. I have now reduced the furling point, and this has now limited the peak output to around 300W, which is more manageable. The new blades on the AxFx mill have increased power output from 450W to now a peak of 670W, so this confirms the blades are OK design. 23.5A into battery at 28.5V. I may now have to put the Lakota blades back on. The windmill is fully furled at the peak power, so there will be no gain to change the furling point. The thin wires in the stator handle 4A OK, but 5A will push power dissipation from 64W, up to 100W. Luckily it is not a really hot day. Gordon. PS edit: AxFx mill, 24.5A at 29.5V, 720W, chinese controller shutting down F&P mill as well. Diversion loading is now too small again. become more energy aware |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
The new wooden blades have flown on the AxFx and F&P mills now. Not a great success on the F&P and overkill for the AxFx. The torque required to start the decogged F&P equates to about 15W of output power. This is how much power the AxFx mill produces, yet the F&P is yet to turn. They work well at higher wind speeds on the F&P, but the lack of starting torque will need to be adressed. I will be investigating the feasability of replacing the F&P rotor and stator, with possibly another dual rotor AxFx unit. I have a lot of people drop in to see me and on occasions my AxFx mill is spinning happily yet the F&P mill is stopped. The question invariably is asked, "what is wrong with the one not spinning?" I think to myself, Iron, Iron, Iron. I usually just say it is turned off. I guess, if I go this way, then my F&P testing will have been just that. There will not be much re engineering to do a conversion. If I go this way, it will not be as extreme as my original unit. I will have to make a new stator mould as well. probably out of plywood this time. This may be a good task this winter. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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Bryan1 Guru  Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
Hi Gordon, Although a long weekend here I've been flatout with only 1 day in the shed machining. I did get the riser block made for the rotary table and now the next task is to mount it then finish off the centre. I still need to find some epoxy for the rotor too.. Now the reason I'm putting this in your thread once I get this 2hp conversion finished I'd luv for you to test it to death to prove the offset method does work with small 3 phase motors. As I wont have the $$$ to make the new tower, as for the blade set well this is another new ground and people like Keg can enlighten me on his success. With our testing of the caps on the f&p has gone along way and for the next stepup is either dual axial Flux or motor conversions. Mate I also have those new bearings here for your AxFx and if other guys do need bearings hell guys just ask and I'm sure I can get them cheaper. Cheers Bryan  |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
I have made a start with the design for a new AxFx alternator. I have sourced some 2" round Neo discs. I have wound a test coil, 100 turns. The resistance was measured at 0.255ohms. This will equate to 0.51 ohms per phase. This should be low enough. This will have 16 magnets, on 2 rotors. There will be 3phases with 2coils per phase. The coils are much easier to wind than my original design. The coils take about the same time to wind each, but this new AxFx unit only has 6 coils, instead of 44. The rotors will be approx 11" dia, and the rotors and stator will be enclosed inside the rotor can I currently have the F&P alternator inside. I am expecting this new AxFx alternator will be 1kW+. Some photos will follow. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
This is the tentative layout for the new AxFx unit. The magnets are 2 inch dia, the coils work out to be 3.6 inch dia. The rotor is 10 inch dia plate, and the magnets will be placed at a radius of 3.75 inches. The stator will end up approx 11 inch dia and will fit inside the rotor can. 
The final dimensions will be close to set when I make a second test coil with 1.8mm wire. This will probably reduce the resistance by 40%. The low resistance will probably give bone jarring stopping of the rotor. The first set of wooden blades are being tested on a chinese windmill. Preliminary testing indicates a significant improvement over the factory originals. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Hi Gordon ,excellant as usual work -you must be IMsmooth's brother ?.lol. Just a thought ,,seeing there is so much stuff on this thread about caps,Etc, what do you think about a new thread for you Axial project including your blades and all the stuff so far for the axial right through to the finish .. Then we would have your's and IMsmoothes as reference sources for any new guys wanting to build from scratch. Glenn,, how about IMSmooth's project being listed in the projects section? then later, Gordons's? Just my thought's. Thanks, Bruce Bushboy |
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oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
[quote]The low resistance will probably give bone jarring stopping of the rotor. [/quote] Thats the kind of stopping I have grown to appreciate with 1.8mm wire and 2 inch round magnets. It will stop in anything.... and I mean anything.... if mines anything to go by. .........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Oztules, I may have enough room to increase the wire size further, just kidding. here is a clearer pic of the expected layout. I had to juggle the extracting bolt position to avoid magnets and coils. The magnets are the 8 blue smaller circles. The 6 red medium circles are the coils. The yellow circles represent one rotor ring. The opposite rotor is a fullsize disk, on the other end of the can, that is the blue large dia ring. 
computer generated images will have to suffice for the moment. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| woodchips Newbie  Joined: 05/01/2009 Location: United KingdomPosts: 27 |
Hello, nearly back, had operation on my hand and can't do much at the moment, other than read. Some questions please on the F&P alternators, they are not available in the UK so can't get a physical unit. What is the physical size of each pole piece, height, length and thickness? How many turns of wire on each pole, if known or guessed, or a rewire? How many laminations and their thickness in each pole piece? I am trying to write an account of the hows and whys of the series capacitors, and some real magnetic circuit data would be useful. Qztules, did you get any reply from Dubilier on the AC electrolytics? I got nothing, not even an acknowledgement after 4 weeks. Cheers Bob |
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| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
No luck here either Bob I'm afraid. Currently trying to rewire a 2 pole 240v single phase motor generator into a 2 pole 3ph 415v unit. Trying to work out the distributed windings for 36 slots, with a wire size I have on hand (too thick) with slots too shallow, and keep the rotor well away from saturation.... the controls will come next....probably current transformer style.. when I work out how they work!.... I have my own distractions at the moment 
Hope the hand comes along fine ( I could use another one to keep the wire in place while placing the wire in the slots  )
.........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
I went to get some winding wire from my usual supplier. It seems the global financial crisis has hit this business. They no longer supply cut quantities. Was not in a position to buy 25kg on the day, so will source elsewhere for a few kg. Will probably look at 1.25mm and wind 2 in hand for the low resistance. It seems the wooden blades work well on extender bars on a chinese mill. I will look into modifying my templates to give 300mm extra length at the blade root end. This will give a rotor of 3.4m dia. I am looking at a double scarf joint with a stronger hardwood, to maintain a thin section and make the extender with an airfoil section to reduce form drag. The Oregon may be strong enough if an increasing taper along the new section is used. A set of test blades will need to be made. I am not sure if other readers have ventured down this path? Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi tinker, I have never been a fan of the open style of AxFx windmills that have appeared on many windmill sites on the internet. I have decided that I would make my new AxFx alternator in a similar way to the prototype machine I built in 1993/4. This has the magnet rings connected on the outside. The stator is fully enclosed, but is open to cooling through a significant space on the rear side between the rotor and the axle. Only one magnet ring is directly attached to the bearing housing. The wiring tails will be flexible wire and fully moulded into the stator. The tails will exit the alternator in the gap between the rotor and the axle. The alternator will be no biggger than the can that enclosed my F&P unit, and will attach to the yaw box on the first page of this thread. I am expecting the rotor will have a higher mass than the plastic F&P. The new wooden blades will more than compensate. Here is a drawing of the new expected layout. new layout This is tentative until some coil testing is done. I was able to increase the coils from 6 to 8 and the magnets from 8 per rotor to 12. Unfortunately the arrangements allow only 2phase with 8 coils. I only have 3 slip rings on the tower and I want to keep the AC output. I will need to see if I can reduce the turns and add another coil in the layout, so I get back to 3phases. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Well I have some magnets and will be setting up a test rig with an old F&P bearing holder. I intend to bolt one of the rings to the 4 hole mounting. The other ring can be spaced away with some test standoffs. I will then be able to insert some test coils and get some more exact turn numbers for my system. I will be wiring for 24V, or 48V. This will be a series parallel selection. The coils will be wound 2 in hand, and this will result in 12 flexible wiring tails exiting the stator moulding. The final disk separation distance will be determined by the test coils. I will initially make 3 sets of spacers and this should give a guide to the best spacing. This may still be an iterative process like I went through back in the 1990's with my other AxFx unit. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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RevUpWind Regular Member  Joined: 03/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 60 |
[QUOTE There are some interesting features. The F&P mill needed approx 15kph wind to start. Hey don't worry about that, with the power you are seeing I wouldn't care about fustration of not being able to see yur mill go round in every zephr. Offseting the neos slightly might have helped the noise prob. Russell ....River Heads - Australia The wind blows wherever it wishes; you hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. |
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| RevUpWind Regular Member Joined: 03/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 60 |
Help Gordon: What's an AxFx? ....River Heads - Australia The wind blows wherever it wishes; you hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. |
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| RevUpWind Regular Member Joined: 03/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 60 |
Hi Anthony, I am a hawt fan but please advise what power you are making from your vawt and its dimensions etc. I could become a convert. F&P's are noisy. Don't you just love the howling in the night! Actually my neigbour says it sends him to sleep. I have heard noiser air conditioners and of course cursed dogs! Russell ....River Heads - Australia The wind blows wherever it wishes; you hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
I have been using this Acronym for ages. This is my shorthand for my dual rotor Axial Flux. I think I have previously given the cross reference, but cannot remember where. My designs are different to those usually published on the internet, so I chose to use AxFx as a distinction to the usual dual rotor axial flux designs. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Jarbar Senior Member Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
Russell, I think AxFx refers to an Axial Flux generator. The F&P pole twisting definitely reduced the cogging and the reverberations.So loud were they early in my project I was ready to abandon it. After 13 months of badgering my local council and EPA the mind numbing roar of the Air Con behind my house was finally relocated last Wedensday Hurray for that.Dogs no issue. As for output I can only say zero.It has been 3 months since I last had enough herbs to do any work on it.And it has never yet produced one watt.My main aim was to prototype some untried ideas on my VAWT.I know what my next mods need to be and I have partially completed them. Unfortunately chronic fatigue can leave many days in a month wasted staring at the ceiling or computer.Hoping tommorrow will be a better day.But my sanity is kept by the interesting banter that goes on here. So at the moment the VAWT rotates endlessly unloaded but testing out my innovations.Better 6 months of some testing than none.My main aim is to produce the maximum grunt from the smallest space and the lightest weight.In it's present form it easily turns the F&P direct drive and also when geared up 3.25 times and on a very windy day 2 F&P's at 3.25.What will happen once wired up no idea!!!From these test I have deduced my next mods,I know VAWT's are frowned upon but feel I have some untried solutions.What are they? I am reluctant to say yet.And maybe I'm delusional about the perceived benefits.I am also able to do testing with some old centrifugal fans where I can test the torque with a digital spring balance. Any way catch up soon. Anthony. "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
It may pay to read some of my previous postings, or at least search the forum. I have provided pictures [p7 of this thread has some], and many descriptions in various threads on this forum and also on otherpower. I have 2 windmills in close proximity and have had the oppertunity to compare them in a wide variety of wind conditions. My F&P windmill requires a completely different type of blade to the AxFx mill. The cogging torque of the F&P, even though now very low still plays a major part in low wind performance. The Lacota blades have been tried on the F&P mill, but were poor performers. These work very well on an ironless stator design though. I am continuing on my prototype to test the 2inch round magnets. Once The number of turns are determined I will be starting on the Alternator proper. This will be most likely a 3phase design, 3 series coils per phase, AxFx with dual magnet rotors with 12 magnets per rotor, in a closed type design. I continue to have people stop for a chat, or stop and just take photos of my windmills. Many people who do chat, marvel at how little wind is needed to keep the AxFx mill turning. This is one reason why I will be making a second, more powerful unit. Many times with light wind conditions [it is not always blowing a gale], the AxFx mill is still turning even though the Davis cup anemometer has stopped. It may not be producing power, but it is at least still turning, and this is a key to harvesting power in light conditions. The F&P mill still needs a decent gust to get going and needs more sustained wind to keep going. When the F&P mill has insufficient wind to maintain cutin, it slows and then stops. The AxFx mill seems to produce 5-15W power in the very light winds, where the F&P is stopped. Where I live, I would describe the winds to be OK for my AxFx windmill, but marginal for my F&P windmill. The AxFx windmill [with 30% smaller blade area], usually produces more power than the F&P windmill except during storms. I intend keeping the F&P alternator, as a backup, for when I service my windmills. All of the power head components are designed to be interchangeable. Hi Anthony, I have my own health problems and have my good and bad days. I find that having small projects on the go that can be interupted and even participating in forum discussions gives the mind some R&R from dealing with the failings of the body. When the body is unwilling, there is always tomorrow, or the computer. An old Gentleman I knew 103years old once said, he atttributed his long life to always having a project to work on. I have a way to go yet, but I also have a lot of projects. I wish I could recharge as quickly as a battery. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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