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Forum Index : Solar : Grid connected inverter off grid
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Madness Guru  Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Sorry no links regarding connecting a GTI to a generator, what I know is what I have posted. Too many southerners have already moved up here, I have to laugh every time I see number plates up here with "Victoria the place to be", I wonder if they put them out before or after "Victoria on the move (to QLD)". The Aurora will run at it's best at around 350 VDC same as most GTIs as there is no up or down conversion losses. Installing the GTI will be the same as installing a off grid inverter as to whether you need a qualified sparky. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
I don't know why there seems to be a distinct reluctance with off grid types to use generators. From what I read, most people go to undue expense and complication to avoid using them when for the limited time they would be needed they would offer the most cost effective and simple solution. Nice to see some people who recognise their value! I would be setting up for the average weather and anticipating a fortnight to month a year of real crap ( where I am) that the genny came into play. I have a bunch of small diesels,( although some not so small at all!) and run them off veg oil. Even if you had to buy diesel, the things are still cheap to run. As said, petrol gennys are worthwhile too for the time they would be needed. My lister has 2x 80A car alts hanging off it and will supply the full rated amperage. I have run that into a couple of car batteries with inverters just pulling the power straight off the alts and the batteries stayed charged. If I was off grid I'd get a leece Nevile alt or two and external controllers that really make the things efficient and go with those. These come in various flavors but a 24V/ 270A would kick out some very serious power and the multi stage charging would get a battery bank up to speed fast. Even the little Chinese vertical bore diesels do 6Hp or more and are cheap as chips off fleabay. I have 5 of the things. Can't resist them although from now on I'm going to try and stick to water cooled for my acquisitions. My favorites so far are the Chinese horizontal engines. I have a little 165 which is rated at 3 HP and will out pull any 6 Hp I have including the expensive German Hatz. Fantastic little engine that is tough and reliable and runs on any filth I feed it be it veg, used engine oil, transmission fluid or any mix or combination I can get through a filter and into the injector pump. Engine does not care. I pulled the head off a while back after giving it a good spray of water down the intake while it was running and the combustion chamber looked like someone had polished it and the ring lands were much the same. No buildup at all. I just bought a 5.5 Hp model of this engine and looking forward to running that. I'm having a bolt on shaft made for it atm as these engines typically come with a fixed size pulley. I want to go a fair bit bigger than the one that is on it as I know the grunt of the thing will allow me to gear the speed up and back off the revs to drive an alternator. Next couple of weeks I'll be picking up a lister twin 12/2 with a 6KW gen head. I'll add a 24 and 12V alternator to that and it will be my power independence. For an off grid situation, one of these things would give one almost grid like sufficiency. I also have a 6/1 which I may or may not sell. Dug it out the back of the shed the other day to photograph and put on gum tree but now looking at it again not sure I want to part with it. The engine collection is taking up a LOT of space in the shed though sitting there doing nothing useful. I think I need to rationalise the problem with the number of engines I have as there is only so much space and I need to bite the bullet on my addiction and extend the shed! :0) I don't do much with petrol engines other than the ones on the plentiful garden equipment I have. Most of them are Chinese and yet to have an ounce of trouble with them. I would take one of these Honda copys over a genuine Briggs any day. My Father wouldn't have anything other than Honda on his property and was pretty Dubious when I bought him some gear with the Chinese motors. 6 years later of flogging them with nothing but oil changes and new filters, he has yet to have one single problem and now says it would be hard to justify the price of a Honda over these engines given he hasn't been able to fault them. Biggest drawback with them has been interpreting the symbols for which way the fuel is on but that was cured with a marker pen and writing ON at the appropriate side. I played with some F&P motors and they were interesting. Bit limited for what I wanted but probably enough grunt for most people for battery charging. Nothing to stop them being paired up as I have seen done as well. |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
Would take a bit to get me back to Vic again. I was there in January for the first time in about 15 years. My daughter got a work contract down there so we drove her car down for her. We went into Melbourne the day that first mongeral parasite mowed all those people down. The guy went right past me and looked me in the eye. I saw the aftermath of what he did and minutes earlier would have been right where there was no escape. I'm no pussy but I have to admit that has played on my mind and give me a sick feeling every time I hear or think about it and I can feel my heart start pounding like it's going to come through my chest. To hear of another one the other day Right where we were many times around the station is beyond belief. Wasn't all that long after we got back the plane crashed into the shopping centre, the one we went to about 4 times and spent (too) long hours shopping and having lunch as that's where my daughters friend was working. Nope, Victoria and particularly Melbourne has made it clear I'm not welcome down there and given me signs that can't be ignored. From now on I'll stay at home or just go north. Thing one hears here a lot is " If you go to Qld you'll never have the money to come back to Syd". My response is " If you were up there, why the hell would you want to come back here and how many people did you ever hear of that wanted to?"  Only thing I have heard from people that went north was they should have done it 10 years ago. We should have done it 25 years ago when we first had the idea. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I quite like Melbourne, am close to the beach, and we don't get the heat, the cyclones, or the cane toads. Pretty peaceful here where I am. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
When you run off grid for free I know I am very hesitant to start up a generator but there are times you have to. ATM I have a collection of generators and engines Lister TR2 1986 direct injection Diesel 8 KW generator capable of being configured as 3 phase. Onan 10KW 4 cylinder converted marine Diesel generator Onan 6.5KW 2 cylinder marine Diesel generator in pieces ATM Chinese Diesel water cooled horizontal single cylinder 20 something HP Chinese belt drive 7.5 KW generator to go with above Chinese 2 cylinder 14HP water cooled horizontal Diesel (quietest and easy starting) Kubota single cylinder horizontal 10HP water cooled Diesel, needs a crank grind and oversize big end bearings. Honda 3.5KVA petrol generator Fuji 3.7KVA suitcase portable generator Out of all of these the portable one gets the most use mainly helping out other people in blackouts. I really should sell off some of them, I plan to advertise the Lister in the next few weeks. I like playing with generators but once they are running I would rather find ways not to use them, must be a sickness.  There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
Yes for the inverter correct, but if I'm hooking panels up over 120V dc then a sparky has to do the install, all the ones I spoke to would not use second hand racking and were reluctant to even touch it, must have rang 50 only two gave me the time of day, they wanted $2000 to mount the panels and wire to inverter. So I thought screw that. I would prefer to go off grid anyway and not pay anything to the bastards. I also think that more and more people will do it and the line access fees will go through the roof. I have an independent streak that I just can't shake. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Yup................. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Didn't cost me one cent in labour to mount and connect mine. I suspect a lot of people who buy secondhand solar panels etc end up with the same dilemma. If you put a breaker at the panels run conduit from there to your GTI, apply all the warning stickers would anybody know the difference? If you plan to wire in your off-grid inverter you are really in the same territory. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
Yeah and the problem is most panels would not be on the cec approval list either so they can't connect them to the grid anyway, bloody silly, I can see the point with inverters as the technology changes. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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Ralph2k6 Senior Member  Joined: 24/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 129 |
I second the cec approved list for panels, just an excuse to perpetuate sales. If panels were once approved I'd like to know what benchmark has changed there. However with inverters, fair enough, the retailers want PV supply limiting when needed for 'grid stability'. And it is a good way to improve standards, maybe raise efficiency requirements etc for inverters. Ralph |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
Mate, renewable energy is a self feeding industry, I personally don't believe in global warming created by man, the earth has warmed and cooled many times over, all the other planets are warming ATM too, and not too many gas guzzling chevvies on the moon. If a panel was fine 5 years ago WTF would it not be now? There are a hell of a lot of people making money, BIG money from renewable energy, and I bloody know it's not me!!! Seems to be very silly, regulations where they want us to be sustainable, how more bloody sustainable do you want to get by using unwanted solar panels to produce power??? But nup, no way pal you can't use those out of date panels. That only annoys people and pushes them off the grid, which will create more burden for those on it. Soon to be connected to the grid will just be so expensive it really won't be worth it I reckon, that's why I'm planning my independence. AND I just love to stuff around with crap. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
My mum/stepdads place has an older solar setup, they are still on the hi rate for feedback(35c?), altho that is set to end very soon (end of Jan??) He has been approached several times to upgrade to a full 5kw system, but with the reduction in the tariff rate to 7c(?) it simply isnt worth it, the payback period extends out past his likely lifespan! I still havent confirmed it but the guy selling the new systems were saying his will have to be disconnected soon as it doesnt meet the new requirements, if so he is likely to simply disconnect it altogether (the aim of the current government??? wouldnt surprise me if that was the case)- Id be pushing him to change it to a partial offgrid system and use the panels to run smaller loads like the lights, tv etc, with a changeover to allow it to go back ongrid if required I can see a lot of people going that route if the prices rise as much as they say they are going to(40% over the next 5 years) would put their bills into the 2g plus a year rate- for two pensioners..... He has had LA batts in his utes for years with inverters for camping/ shopping, the new ute has winstons in it, if they prove to be as good as I think they will for him, I doubt it would be that hard to push him into a partial ongrid/offgrid system (their place isnt really suited for full offgrid, too many trees etc) |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
I put all my panels up myself and wired them. what the hell is the big deal? The panels connect to one another then you run the wiring to the inverter. It's basic DC. I hooked all mine up then a sparky mate came and pointed out some things that although perfectly safe were not tidy as they could be. I re did all the wireing at the inverter and made it over safe and enclosed everything in a breaker box. All the wiring is hidden in the wall cavity. The breaker box I got had all the stickers on it as did the inverter already. No only can I disconnect the whole array, I can switch off the individual strings plus they have breakers not just switches. The regs atm contradict them selves in places so really, any install could be faulted. I don't really care about regs anyway. What I have done is totally safe and everything that comes out the inverter is up to spec. Basis of electrical regs is you don't do anything to stuff up the integrity of the supply. What comes out my inverter goes though an under rated breaker and is controlled by the ( previously) approved inverter. I have never had any inspector ever come round any place I have lived and I sure as heck can't see one turning up now. They would have to get permission to come onto the property if they did and if they didn't let me know anything they didn't like could be dismissed anyway under unlawful entry. Someone mentioned insurance to me. I asked a solicitor mate about it and he said they can't knock you back on a claim because something unrelated caused a problem. If your wiring in the shed causes a fire and it's unapproved, you have to wear that. If there is a problem in the house, they can't blame that on unapproved solar wiring when it had nothing to do with it. If you stick to the letter of electrical codes these days, you are legally not permitted to change your own light bulbs. You should by rights have a licensed trades person come in and do it. If people are concerned about being approved then they certainly should do things by the book. If others are happy to do things themselves then they take any risks which will be nil if it's done right if even not to regs. I agree that a lot of these updates in regs are just to stimulate sales. The CEC list is not about saftey, it's only for accreditation for solar install rebates. As tht is not available for any panel other then when sold new, makes no difference to me. Ironically, as those rebates are paid over 15 years normally, It would make more sense to encourage the use of these panels in the second hand market so as to extract the full value from the rebate paid rather than pay 15 years of benefits for a 5 year install that was then thrown away. Far as I am concerned they can take their approved list and.... try and BS someone else with it. |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
If you get a generator input hooked up to the shed it won't make any difference what feeds that input. If it's on my roof I want it certified or ELV that I can do. Woo hoo I got a jaycar gift card and a dans 100 each. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Are you *sure* about that? You might be surprised how many people can legally enter your property and inspect things if public safety could be involved. Fire brigade, police, waterboard, electricity supply, etc. etc. Klaus |
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| George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308 |
Nothing I have done is a public safety issue nor is it accessible by the public. Couldn't even be seen from any public area and only 2 neighbors could know it's there. Not sure one can actually see it anyway and the one that can I spoke to before I put my panels up and asked if he would mind and the reply was" Your property mate, You can do what you like on it" Followed by a lengthy conversation on it and then another telling me I had motivated him to make his system bigger and had a guy that would bend the rules ( adding new panels and inverter to existing system ) to do it for him. Chances of problems in my assessment are too low to worry about. I'm not saying I'm untouchable or I couldn't get inspected or fined or whatever. I just firstly don't believe it is a risk significant enough to be concerned about and secondly if i do get copped, the penalty would be more than likley nothing beyond a slap on the wrist. Maybe I'm wrong and will get a slap in the face but that's the risk I knowingly take. Thats not me and I well know other people would look at it differently and not dare to do anything but follow all the rules. Not the way I am but for those that are, they need to do what lets them sleep at night. I sure won't be loosing any over my efforts. :0) I spose most significantly if not wrongly, I'm just sick to freaking death of having done things right and by the rules all my life and been inconvenienced and had endless problems with those flaunting the system and the authorities I have complained to and asked for help have done sweet Fk all. To me these days the people that do the right thing get hassled and made to just through stupid hoops and the ones that cut serious corners get away with it discovered or not. I'm not hurting anyone, upsetting them, impeding on their enjoyment or anything else. I just want to do my own thing on my own property that does not diminish the enjoyment others have of theirs. I think that's fair enough. If I do get inspected, fined or whatever, I'll deal with it and cop it on the chin. Nothing else I can do but the fact is, the chances of that happening and the likelihood of anything coming from it -I- consider to be insignificant. I'm fed to the back teeth with being bent over on spiraling power prices and being fed moronic BS about saving CO2 and other justifications for corporate and Gubbermint greed and mismanagement. Also sick of stupid, overbearing and pointless BS rules and regulations who's prime existence is to keep pencil pushers in fake jobs when significant problems are duck shoved and put in the too hard basket. My own personal civil revolt is to put some used panels on my roof and feed the power back to the grid and use it as a battery so I get a 1:1 return on the power I generate instead of the power company laughing at me by making a 600% profit at my expense. |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
Tinker is correct, and the frequency of inspectors does depend on location, the burbs get a lot more inspections than rural properties (although from experience the reverse should be true, some of the homebrews I've seen on some farms were terrifying) AFAIK, even if you dont have a grid connection at all, they can still enter and inspect off grid systems (although how they would know I dont know- possibly by house building permits against grid connections?) I'm of two minds about permits and the like- imho they have gone waaay too far, I'd like to see a system like NZ where homeowners can do some things and just have an inspection that they are safe and up to scratch- its ridiculous what is required to ownerbuild, both in costs and prohibited things like plumbing and electrics- I cant even legally do the prep work for the electrical install like conduits, stringing cables etc, technically the sparkie has to do it all, even the bits that he doesnt want to do (luckily he'd rather let me do it, he just says what he wants and where and I tell him when its ready- not at all legal but he is happy to do it, that I'm an elec fitter might help lol) Publish the reqs and requirements in plain, easy to understand english (NOT governmentese!) let people do it themselves if they want, or pay tradesmen to do it otherwise- inspection then approval or requirements to fix |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
Hey guys, does anyone know anything about the giandel pure sine inverter? Just a bit worried that's what fried the old AC unit, when I spend $2000 on a new AC I don't want this to happen again. The AC was 8-10 years old so prob would have given up anyway. It would be interesting if someone in Melb area had an oscilloscope to test it. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Have a look on Gumtree for a secondhand CRO, they do come up for under $100 and it will be invaluable with building your own inverter. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I bought one of these $28 digital oscilloscopes. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Assembled-DSO138-2-4-TFT-Digital-Oscilloscope-Module-Board-Kit-Probe-DIY-Set/142593008664?_t rkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3D92b293bbeb0c49ce863fd17c0d3c6d00%26pid%3D1 00005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D132277487407&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851 The screen is very small (match box sized) but it works very well. I have one of these permanently hooked up to my inverter to monitor the output waveform. Amazing value. Cheers, Tony. |
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