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Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 01:46am 28 Jun 2016
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Making progress with the monster Torroid, I have put 4 layers of 1.6 mm wire on, these photo's are the during and after the last (4th) secondary winding has gone on.
Tomorrow I plan to start winding the primary using 1.6 wire, 11 turns I should be able to get a first layer of 15 in hand and then another layer with 14 in hand. That will be a total of 58 mm square of copper, I know Oz thinks I am mad for trying this, but when people tell me you can't do that I have to prove them wrong.
I quote Oztules here from another forum " There are probably better ways of doing this stuff, and I'm all ears." Maybe you are right Oz that 1.6 wire is note the best way to go but then... Not trying to disagree with you Oz, I think you are very talented. I want to try to keep the Torroid as compact as possible along with the reduced size of the power board above using the original external heat sink. So that I can fit every thing in one Aero Sharp box. Also with the extra windings it will be able to run cooler. I will post more results soon.
Edited by Madness 2016-06-29There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 01:58am 28 Jun 2016
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He only says your mad because he can't do it himself.
I had a bash, but It was too hard for me compared to welding wire.
You have made a good fist of that. It will be a serious transformer when you are finished.
I hope you succeed without too much problem... then I might have to give it a go too.... he said.. wincing a bit at the same time
I have not had time or good weather to run the big clockman board for very long ... maybe 20 mins at 4000w, and it has not gotten warm, but weather has been cold, and draft through the shed, and short time span, so can't say how warm it will get after how long. No sunlight for weeks really, so keeping use lower than normal...usually have plenty of spare kwh to burn up for testing, but 4kw for long periods with little solar is cruelty on the battery for no good reason.
Looking forward to it.
............oztules
Edited by oztules 2016-06-29Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 06:49pm 28 Jun 2016
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Just tried 11 turns and only got 24.4 volts with a 228 on the secondary. So put another turn and got the result shown. So looks like the calculations or measurements where out somewhere.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 08:06pm 28 Jun 2016
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Recheck the figures... something is wrong when your last turn added 3v or more
On your initial figures, I see 240v would make almost 26v as guessed. ie 228 made 24.4 or 9.34:1... so another 12v would yield 25.7v close enough really... a point 3v error is not bad.
Your extra turn created 24.4-27.6 = 3.2v..... how, when your first 11 turns only made 24.4/11=2.21v
See post 28 http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8784&get=last#95499 for my best explanation of what happened on your last turn... it is the antimatter I say.....
As you can see it confused the electrons in that last turn
I see how your going to do the winding.... there is a good chance of success, I tried to do it all at once to keep the resistances the same, but that is not critical at all..... nifty...
........oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 11:47pm 28 Jun 2016
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Checked it again, thinking back my wife had the oven on so may have been some voltage variations. Must be going mad I have 98 turns on the secondary 98/8 = 12.25 where did I get 11 from
Checked voltages again and took photo's so can't be a memory thing
constant 228 volts on secondary
11 turns = 25.3
12 turns = 27.8
27.8 - 25.3 = 2.5
2.5 X 11 = 27.5
2.5 x 12 = 30
I know you say through the hole is a turn but if one is 10.75 turns and the other is 12.2 will they still give exactly the same volts per turn?Edited by Madness 2016-06-30There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 12:08am 29 Jun 2016
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I think it is your digital meter measuring an unloaded transformer.... it is slightly unnerved from the looks.... but only in the second digit..
This is the real problem:-
"Just tried 11 turns and only got 24.4 volts with a 228 on the secondary. So put another turn and got the result shown. So looks like the calculations or measurements where out somewhere. "
That says you misread it.... as now you get 25.3 for the same measurement
However.... yes a turn through the middle is all that counts.... load will make a difference to the measurements perhaps.
I make it as 2.3v/turn as a reasonable value.... so 11 turns. For a 228v grid, then you will get about 25.3 volts.
I expect almost 9:1 for this effort, so I expect 26.6v which is where we wanted to be in the first place for 240v grid
So 11 turns is probably the right amount for the 8010 under all operation voltages I expect ...... 12 turns will give you pretty much the same thing.... I would not be pedantic.
The 8:1 is for the PJ card.
11 or 12 will be fine.
It is about now I appreciate the 1 in hand.... gives flexibility after the event... winding near 30 in hand.... well thats more problematic to change in two layers....
EDIT.... actually we got very very close to exact considering the coarse rule of thumb we started with... were puzzled over fractions of a volt.... not too shabby. ..........oztulesEdited by oztules 2016-06-30Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 02:02am 29 Jun 2016
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Thanks for the reassurance Oz, 11 turns it is then. The photo from before was a test with some 1.6 wire, I will be winding with 2 mm. Have a 75 mm hole at this stage, the Aero Sharps where down to about 50mm. If all goes to plan I will get 1 layer of 11 in hand, 2nd layer 10 in hand and 3rd layer of 9 in hand of 2mm wire. Should still have a 60mm hole and 62mm square primary. That will also fit easily in the choke.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 12:10pm 29 Jun 2016
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Your shooting way over the top
Because you have 4 in hand for the secondary of 1.6 wire, in theory you should have 36 in hand of 1.6 wire for the primary to have matched copper.
In reality, because the duty cycle will be way under 100%, 50mmsq would be great, 35mm would still be fine for most circumstances..... 62mm will be steller... if you can get them in there neatly.
Yesterdays testing was with 16mmsq... well under done for all intents.
This transformer will run very cool.
...........oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 12:24pm 29 Jun 2016
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Hi Oz,
I am using 2 MM for the primary so 20 in hand will give me 62.8 Square the 8 x 1.6 secondary is 8 mm square so very very close to your "matched copper" target. The plan is to build it to be bullet proof, at least the Torroid part, it is easy to make spare boards to have on hand, but if the Torroid failed that would result in some four letter words.
If it turns into mess I will retreat back into my hole and shut up.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 02:49pm 29 Jun 2016
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I get that all the time, I will be measuring something and perhaps the controller will slip into PWM while my back is turned or I will be lazy and not hook up the second MM to check voltage while I am measuring amps and it throws my calculations out.
I am sure that the first number 24.4 is the one that is out. By the time I had read your post and picked it, Oz had already posted so I went to bed.
I think the original back of the envelope numbers were
240v/26.6v = 9
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 03:19pm 29 Jun 2016
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Thanks Yahoo, Thought I was going mad, turns out I am right.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 03:22pm 29 Jun 2016
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There is a 48v powerstar or similar on Ebay for $300 if anyone is interested, located Epsom, Victoria.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 07:37pm 29 Jun 2016
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Primary windings are going on reasonably well, but I would say if you don't have good reason to recycle the copper wire or save space then save yourself some time and effort do it Oz's way. Have 12 wires out of 20 on so far.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 09:15pm 29 Jun 2016
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15 turns on 5 to go, I am happy with how it is going.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 10:01pm 29 Jun 2016
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Your not the only one happy.... looks good......
You realise now i will have to try one too.... dammit!
........oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 10:08pm 29 Jun 2016
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For comparison
From memory, a while ago I purchased 70mm2 500A battery cable, thin outer sheath and v flexible due to lots of copper wires.
it was at least $20 per metre plus freight.
Ah-ha found the specs
insulation 1.4mm thick
2240 conductors @0.2mm
I dont have a number for its 100% duty cycle maximum temperature I am guessing 65 deg C and the weight around 0.75kg/metre. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 01:12am 30 Jun 2016
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Your a masochist OzThere are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9308
Posted: 05:48am 30 Jun 2016
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Nice looking toroid work there, Madness. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 10:42am 30 Jun 2016
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For my transformer it would need 6.5 metres so $130 worth of wire, based on that I would do it the way I have.
Just dug up this from a manufacturers web site.
"• Low Operating Temperature
Operating temperature is an important safety factor. Our toroidal transformers, built for Class A (105C) or Class B (130C) operation, are normally calculated for a temperature rise of 40-50ºC. If lower temperature is needed, a larger core can be used. When the transformer is operating at half its load, the temperature rise is only 1/4 of the rise at full power."There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 10:44am 30 Jun 2016
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Thanks Graeme, especially for the wire you contributed. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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of what happened on your last turn... it is the antimatter I say.....
