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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : PICAXE vs Arduino vs MicroMite...
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Lou Senior Member  Joined: 01/02/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 229 |
Vasi, What dog do you have ?? I'm a big dog lover, I have 3 German Shepherds here. I know what you're talking about, my dogs have pulled proto board wires loose - even hit the reset button on the PC when they get to sparing around, gotta be careful. I have the ICD 3 and PICkit 3 here so I'll probable stick with the PIC micros, especially now that I know about the great cow basic. Just curious, what's your favorite of the group ?? Lou Microcontrollers - the other white meat |
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vasi Guru  Joined: 23/03/2007 Location: RomaniaPosts: 1697 |
You mean microcontrollers group, or dogs group? Dogs: I had a German Shepherd female and a Rottweiler male (it was a good dog, it didn't imposed threat to my daughter as I feared). German Shepherds are my favourites but I also like the Boxer. Something like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boxer_bringe.jpg But not only guarding dogs. I like to have this breed as well: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/A_West_Highlan d_White_Terrier.jpg (exactly that face and hair style). Right now I have a stray dog, picked up by my daughter form her school's yard - I couldn't stop her from bring him home. Is a disaster dog, with pack reflexes and habits. And the biggest coward I have ever seen. And a traitor. But my daughter's dog  .
Micros: As I said, I started with PICAXE and I was surprised to see how easy is to work with them - you still can't find them in Romania. Then I was very proud when I succeeded in programming a raw PIC12F675. The guys from TheBackShed helped me a lot and I am grateful to them. I settled for a while to PIC18F and enjoyed all the free compilers I got. But recently I found that an ATmega is even easier to program than a PIC - once you get past configuration fuses. I like them the most (Arduino board have one of them) but are expensive compared to PICs. If @Grogster will get mad at me, I will blame you 
The best free, non-C compilers/languages for 8bit PIC micros are: 1.- JALv2q2 - true all-in-one compiler-assembler-linker. The best of them in code size and cross platform. Does not need a linker script. Jallib, a separated project, provide a huge collection of high quality libraries and examples for it. Open source; 2.- Pic Micro Pascal - produces assembler file, needs mplab or gputils assembler+linker. Version 2 is in development and it will threaten the JALv2q2 position. It have his own IDE. Windows only; 3.- Amicus18 Basic - produces assembler file, needs mplab only assembler+linker. Only for 2 microcontrollers. It have his own IDE. Windows only. 4.- Firewing Basic - produces assembler file, needs mplab only assembler+linker. Only for 4 microcontrollers. It have his own IDE. Windows only. 5.- Great Cow Basic - produces assembler file, needs mplab or gputils assembler+linker. Cross platform. Open source. Great support from @elproducts. The best free, non-C compilers/languages for 8bit AVR micros are: 1.- LunaAVR - true all-in-one compiler-assembler-linker-debugger. Objectual but also procedural language (you can program only procedural if you want). Surprisingly good in both language features and compiled code - German quality! Excellent library. Excellent code map viewers - knows exactly where is every bit. Not even Atmel Studio dare to provide something like this. Cross platform - his own IDE for Windows/Linux and only command line for Mac. Again, big thanks to @Atmega8 for pointing me to it. It is very easy for BASIC fans to master it so I'm surprised that is yet unknown to many. 2.- Great Cow Basic, as presented in PIC section; 3.- Wiring language - used in Arduino IDE. A language a little easier than C but in reality, you'll have to learn both C and C++ to get the best from the Arduino boards. The biggest library and application collection in the world. The code size produced is big. produces a C/C++ source which is compiled by avr-gcc toolchain. Open source. Have his own IDE. Cross platform. In my opinion, it should not be in this list; 4.- Ada for AVR - avr-gcc compiler with ADA support. It provides a language with safety mechanisms, which could be a good choice for medical, space, army, etc. applications but is too much for the poor 8bit AVR micro. It produces bigger code size than Arduino. Vasi Hobbit name: Togo Toadfoot of Frogmorton Elvish name: Mablung Miriel Beyound Arduino Lang |
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9309 |
I'm sure that Grogster won't get mad.  Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Lou Senior Member Joined: 01/02/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 229 |
Vasi, Yea, I meant the microcontrollers group. Thanks for the great rundown on PIC's and AVR's, and thanks Grogs for not getting mad. I am really enjoying Geoff's uMite and looking forward to the PIC32MX170 with twice the flash and RAM... so many possibilities there. For the dogs I like German Shepherd Dogs. Probably the best all around breed, certainly the best reputation for protection dogs which is what I'm looking for now with the world and economy in it's current shape and being out here alone on the farm. I always have two to four dogs all living inside with me. The mixed breeds, Siberian Huskys, Chocolate Labs, etc. I've had are all great but I like the GSD best. Lou Microcontrollers - the other white meat |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9309 |
I will actually chime in here, and as a slight digression, I also love doggies. We've had a Labrador, a German Sheppard, and a Briard Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Lou Senior Member Joined: 01/02/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 229 |
Grogs, I've had the Labs and GSD, but never heard of a Briard. I looked it up, very interesting dog. Looks like about the same size, lifespan, exercise requirements, etc. of the GSD and a handsome sheepdog like appearance. I bet you really enjoyed that dog. Remember, a dog is the only animal that would rather be with humans than his own kind. Kind of off the Microcontroller thread ...but I love dogs. Lou Microcontrollers - the other white meat |
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| vasi Guru Joined: 23/03/2007 Location: RomaniaPosts: 1697 |
Also Glenn loves dogs Hobbit name: Togo Toadfoot of Frogmorton Elvish name: Mablung Miriel Beyound Arduino Lang |
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Zonker Guru Joined: 18/08/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 761 |
Big Black Lab here... Best Dog so far... (also 7 cats)... yea.. we should have the zoo license.. Wouldn't be the same without them... |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9309 |
Yeah, he was a great dog - a tragedy when he died - like losing a member of the family.(well, they ARE, aren't they!?(rhetorical)) Buck from Married With Children was a Briard - that's if you can remember that show. I don't have a dog these days, but perhaps should get one. It's so painful when they die, that I have tended not to bother anymore! Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Lou Senior Member Joined: 01/02/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 229 |
George Carlin wrote:
It's going to end BADLY. You are purchasing a small tragedy. 'See him? Ain't he cute? Well sh*t he's gonna die!' Yea, he's going to pass on but look at all the good years and memories you had with him, he is definitely a family member. The empty nest he leaves behind is not quite as bad if you have more dogs at the time, don't know if I could go on without them. You should get another Grogs, it fills a big empty spot plus you get the best alarm system there is. Lou Microcontrollers - the other white meat |
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atmega8 Guru Joined: 19/11/2013 Location: GermanyPosts: 722 |
Google doesn't know anything about 1.- JALv2q2 ;-) link? |
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| vasi Guru Joined: 23/03/2007 Location: RomaniaPosts: 1697 |
Sorry Dietmar, You can't find it because is a typing error. Is JALv2.4q2 Here is the Jallib project (a satellite project which provide a huge library collection and examples to the JALv2 compiler) where you can find a complete package, documentation, links http://jallib.googlecode.com This is the most recent package. And read these two books: - Tutorial book - Jallib Starters Guide It is a very active project and on par with Microchip's latest changes on device files and new microcontrollers. If you want to keep an eye on it, register as a member on Jallib Google Group (it is a group for jallib developers, for users is another one on Yahoo, named Jallist). Hobbit name: Togo Toadfoot of Frogmorton Elvish name: Mablung Miriel Beyound Arduino Lang |
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| isochronic Guru Joined: 21/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 689 |
Re Arduino/Picaxe/MM etc There are a lot of small project boards with micros on them, the phenomemon has persisted for two decades or more..It is a satisfying hobby but they are not intended to be the Next Big Thing. The reality is, there is a huge amount of effort involved between prototype and being a commodity, not the least is testing - it takes even a multinational several months to test something thoroughly. It is a problem, because the more things become marketing-driven, the more superficial and disposable the planet becomes..A case in point, the Arduino "standard platform" now splitting into incompatible versions of intellectual Lego, all spruiked in the Jaycar catalog. Perhaps we should go on a "technology strike" and refuse to innovate until marketing is banned !! |
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| hitsware Guru Joined: 23/11/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 535 |
" spruiked " What's that mean ? |
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| isochronic Guru Joined: 21/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 689 |
er, "conspicously advertised" is close maybe. I am starting to think technology companies are like the famous star diagram... Brown Dwarf : a small company with a new product starts out well but then slowly shrinks and eventually shuts down to a remnant. Red Medium : a company becomes successful and grows to become a large market presence persisting for some time. Red Giant : Spin-off markets feed the main process and the company expands strongly. After running out of innovation there is collapse inwards as marketing forces chase short term profits at the expense of growth. The collapse may then create a black hole or neutron star, or create a new burn process.. Nova : The new burn process starts it all again... |
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| vasi Guru Joined: 23/03/2007 Location: RomaniaPosts: 1697 |
@chronic, can you draw a sketch for the following? - Hernando Barragán, a columbian student in Italy invents Wiring board, Wiring language, and builds Wiring IDE based on Processing IDE (a Java development already known in the artist world). He is opposing this project to another solution, based on PICs and an incipient version of JAL language, presented by Massimo, one of the teachers. Hernando wins and his solution is adopted by the University. 
- With the University on the verge of "demolition", the teachers think how to get Wiring out of it and "invents" Arduino board and... stole the rest. What it follows, everyone knows. 
- Back on his country, Hernando continues the development of his project (my note: see, it was able to continue the project outside of italian university so that lame excuse of the thieves don't stand) and come with new versions of Wiring board and Wiring IDE which contains a lot of innovations not included in Arduino IDE and come with a core which supports ALL 8bit AVR microcontrollers. Inside the country, the activity in the academic environment is intense, but outside it dies because of no good marketing? 
Now we should return to Wiring to keep alive the flow of innovations !? P.S.: @JohnS, can you see how JAL and PIC are parts of Arduino history (but not as winners)? Hobbit name: Togo Toadfoot of Frogmorton Elvish name: Mablung Miriel Beyound Arduino Lang |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3816 |
I don't see how PIC is part of Arduino history. (JAL doesn't interest me at all so whether it is or isn't part of that history isn't of interest to me.) John |
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| isochronic Guru Joined: 21/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 689 |
I'm not sure .. there is a point I guess, that on one hand when a new product is created the existing organisations and structures will tend to oppose change. On the other hand, nothing is created in a vacuum, inevitably there is an advantage gained from the baseline technologies and organisations existing in the first place. If there was no marketing at all many products wouldn't exist, although we would all appreciate the peace...what annoys me, is the marketing acting to dictate terms, and laughing all the way to the bank after free-loading off other peoples public-domain development effort. Here in Aus, research/ development/ manufacturing seem to be in a death spiral with unemployment increasing weekly, although the average marketeer remains conspicuously prosperous. |
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| Goeytex Regular Member  Joined: 12/05/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 74 |
Hi, New here but not new to Micro-controllers. On my lab bench I have tray full of various Atmel, PIC, Picaxe, And STMicro Chips, an Arduino UNO, Chipkit Uno, an ICD2 & 3, Pickit2, Pickit3, STK500, etc. That's what I can see at least. I use them all, depending on what is appropriate for the project at hand. I read a post on another forum concerning the Micromite and I thought that it may be a good platform for rapid prototyping. Someone in that thread represented the Micromite as having "bullet speed" compared to a Picaxe, which was represented as having "snail speed". I found that rather interesting since both use interpreted BASIC. Then I was directed here to investigate and found this below. Previously Posted: [quote]Simple digital pin toggle, speed comparison between MicroMite and Arduino Pro Mini mega328. Arduino compiled Arduino C++ code (8 bit, 16Mhz clock processor) digitalWrite(pin, HIGH); digitalWrite(pin, LOW); 4 micro seconds. MicroMite interpreted MicroMite Basic code(32bit, 40Mhz clock processor) pin(2)=1 pin(2)=0 64 micro seconds. [/quote] So I put a couple of Picaxe chips on a breadboard and did the same test. Picaxe 14M2 @ 32Mhz: 52us Picaxe 20X2 @ 32Mhs: 70us Picaxe 20X2 @ 64Mhz: 35us If the 64us figure for Micromite is correct, then for the purpose of this test it is no faster than any currently supported Picaxe. This is kind of what I expected since both use interpreted BASIC. However, as an aside, comparing compiled anything to interpreted BASIC is apples & oranges. Speed is great when you need it, but for many projects, blazing speed is simply not necessary. If I don't need the speed and integer only math is OK, then I may use a Picaxe. If I need speed and floating point math, I will use another platform. If the particular platform means I need to program in C/C++, then I do it. If I can use PBP then I will as I prefer BASIC. I try to avoid Assembler whenever possible, but If I have to do it(very seldom), I will. I will likely order a couple of Micromites and see how they work out for me in projects where speed is not critical. The floating point & string support can come in very handy. I really don't get the fan boy syndrome. Use what works for the task at hand. For the hobbyist, I understand wanting to settle in on a preferred platform and language. It can save time and $ and generally makes things easier. However, being dogmatically/ religiously stuck to a platform or language can result in certain limitations. Easier does not necessarily mean better. But there is never a good reason to badmouth, or misrepresent a particular platform or language just because you prefer something else. Bill |
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psergiu Regular Member Joined: 09/02/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 83 |
"How many times do I have to tell you, the right tool for the right job!" -- Montgomery Scott - Star Trek V: The Final Frontier (1989) All of them are good for their purposes. "Use them together, use them in peace"... And share your findings and discoveries in this forum :) |
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