 Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me. |
Forum Index : Windmills : New 500W+ Chinese Windmill
  Page 4 of 5   |
|||||
| Author | Message | ||||
| wotavidone Newbie  Joined: 28/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
Good day all, I've been reading this forum for a few months now, and decided to register the other day. I'm reading for interest only, I don't really intend to build a genny at this stage (Nowhere to put it at present). I once built one based on a 12v lucas car generator. It actually worked, I have fond memories or powering a 150w halogen spotlight with it, in about 10m/s, but it only needed about 3 m/s to start making 12 volts. Since the genny in question had a rating of 12 volts, 11 amps stamped on the side, I guess it managed full output.I did some things with it that wouldn't get the tick of approval from the forum, that's for sure. I wanted low wind startup, so the blades were 1metre by .2m flat plywood, bolted to an armature made of 38x19 tube. The only nod to aerodynamics was to chamfer the edges with a router. The blade angle was achieved by running an angle grinder cut down the side and squeezing it shut and welding it, giving a sloping surface to bolt the blade to. The field windings was wired to the positive terminal of the generator, via a 1 ohm 40 watt resistor, I figured that would bleed enough excitation current in, given that the thing had enough residual magnetism to start at very low revs. With all that blade area, it certainly had good staring torque, but too slow. So I used an old holden water pump for a bearing housing, an EH holden engine pulleys to gear it up about 4 to one. Worked real good after that, but the tail kept falling off. Why am I posting this in an old thread about a chinese wind generator? It happened to be the one I was reading when I felt interested enough to ask a question, and it seemed kinda rude to just barge in and ask without some kind of introductory preamble. I see these chinese generators are still for sale, at a very reasonable price, so I guess they have been reliable enough to keep selling them. I congratulate Phill for perservering - especially in the face of some rather unpleasant criticisms. It always gets political, doesn't it? He could have just sold these unmodified to unsuspecting ebay customers who wouldn't have known enough to realise they were missing a lot of potential. Anyway, it looks like these could be brilliant in a low wind area like mine. Annual average winds speed here is 4 m/s. Get a fair bit of wind at 6-8 m/s, and the odd storm at 20 m/s. Finally, my question. From my reading of this thread, the low windspeed setup would be - delta connection, slide the blades out on the shafts to give bigger swept diameter and add voltage doubling cap/diode network for low wind charging, proper dumpload regulation for making sure the genny doesn't over exert itself, pay good attention to making sure the furling works soon enough to slow things up before it cooks? Cheers, Mick |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Mick These are an excellent little unit that have a problem in that they are capable of to much power and do not like to be shorted to stop them. I have had one working for more than a year now in delta on 24 volts with very good results, the original furling is a bit sus but a change to 3 deg lay back and 9 degrees side makes the furl at around 15 MS Tail length needs to be increased to 6 foot for better tracking. 3 more on the way this year, to try different configurations. Phill recommends star with voltage caps but I use delta with a boost module it starts charging at 2.5 MS and will do 30 amps at 15 MS into 24 volt system charge volts 30. Before I got the furling set up I did see 50 amps on occasion and that is enough to destroy the unit if kept up or shorted to stop it. 
I will put in a link to my set up saga later. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
| wotavidone Newbie Joined: 28/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
Bob, To get your 2.5m/s charging cut-in, you have done the mod to change the windings to delta, extended the blades and tail, and added a boost module? Was the boost module commercially available or did you make it? Regards, Mick |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Mick A copy of the saga wit mods some necessary and some not just done for the interest. http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2970 The Boost module is commercial available cost about $15 on fleabay. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Mick and Welcome to the Back Shed Forum, Personally , I prefer the Cap/Doubler as it works without trying to clamp the cut/in voltage to the minium rating of the boost module , the boost modules do work but with a lot of heat as the voltage is forced up . The reason they work better in delta is because the minium V cutin thresh hold is achieved at around where the blades are not stalled 80~90+rpm , I tried them on my AXFX and it was clamped to 30~40 Rpm and stalled a 3.2 m blade set with dismal results. You do not have to change the windings into delta to get charging at 2~3m/s , but if you are running with 12V then yes , 24v Star works quite well without caps or boost modules. I have come up with quite a few more mods to make these a reliable good performing little wind gen since this thread started, the one that I am flying now in 48V will not go over 600 ~ 700 W in 12m/s+ and can have a bias weight added to the tail via a cable through the slip rings which will pull it into full furl in under 6m/s for storm protection, or hand pulled into furl as well which is following the principle of the old water pumpers. This mod was done in retalation to smokin another stator in 15~20+m/s peaking at 1800W and then trying to stop it on the short switch after the grid went down. I offer info to all the mods I have done with these mills as PDF files when one is purchased and do not try to sell them as "out of the box set and forget mills". I will not quote angles or dimensions for furling as this is totaly reliant on tail weight and length / blade size and type , and generator loading characteristics but if someone follows the same mods as I have done with one of these kits, then the results should be identicial. In my opinion for what its worth, windgenerators are for people/hobbists/enthuasists who are prepared to go on a journey with a willingness to learn and experment , they all , even the high priced, require maintance and most times ongoing development driven by mother nature and design limits. If it is reliable boring alternative power you need, BUY SOLAR. Feel free to contact me if you need info Mick , theres a Link in the Kits Page. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| wotavidone Newbie Joined: 28/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
"In my opinion for what its worth, windgenerators are for people/hobbists/enthuasists who are prepared to go on a journey with a willingness to learn and experment , they all , even the high priced, require maintance and most times ongoing development driven by mother nature and design limits. If it is reliable boring alternative power you need, BUY SOLAR. " Well, I sort of agree with the sentiment. If you look at the price of solar panels, you can get a lot of watthours for your money these days, and they are as close as you can get to "set and forget". But, in my humble opinion a wind generator has a place as an auxilliary input in a stand alone solar system. At my place, we use most of our electricity in the early evening, when solar panels are no longer producing power. Any drain from the batteries would therefore not be replaced until the next day, and this would be at the deepest depth of discharge. In my part of the world, early evening is usually the windiest, I have years of logged data to confirm this. So, a well chosen and properly set up windymill would a) add years of battery life by reducing the depth of discharge, and recharging promptly, and b) possibly enable you to get away with a slightly smaller battery bank. Batteries seem to be one item that isn't benefitting price-wise from the booming interest in renewable energy. just as well I work for one of the world's biggest lead smelters - don't wanna see the price of lead drop just yet. |
||||
Rastus Guru Joined: 29/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 301 |
Hi Pill M, Fasinating read!If more enthusiasts had these units,progress would be in leaps and bounds!I'm curious about the modified stator covers to address cooling,have they reduced or solved the heat build up/dissipation problem?Could they increase possible weather/shorting issues at broad weather range locations.It is evident from your work that you are persueing excellence.Congratulations!Cheers Rastus see Rastus graduate advise generously |
||||
| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Mick, Yes I agree , if you have good wind a wind generator is a good back up to solar in off grid situations for reducing the depth of charge , If it is reliable wind then a slightly smaller capacity battery bank could be used , but battery banks are mostly undersized due to cost and solar arrays oversized for off grid situations and by 12pm the X watt hr solar bank is being backed off to trickle charge depending on state of charge, which is of course heavily cycling the batts and shortening their life. I can see your point with the load at night and replacing the power but would think it would be better to go smaller on the PV and keep the batts the same. Rastus, I actually had to go back and read over the thread again as it been a while , yes, the modified covers do help with cooling and you would need to use a good quality coating on the stator and internals , I use polyurathane for electricial motors that is in a spray can. The best overheat controll for these is the furling and switching them direct to a load when voltage is reached. A lot of problems arise when a wind gen is set up to maximize low wind performance and then a big blow comes in , this is when it needs to be shut down to survive. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| Rastus Guru Joined: 29/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 301 |
Hi Phill M, Please overlook my spelling mistake,I don't hit the right keys every time.The output of these units is very impressive/atractive although they seem to share AxFx advantages and disadvantages.Although it's probably a dumb idea,I wondered if small ribs or ripples could be added to the stator hub to increase surface area and improve dissipation.Obviously the heat build up is very rapid and it's on the cusp of maximum output.These units would win hands down if I was choosing an AxFx build.All the best!Cheers Rastus see Rastus graduate advise generously |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Rastus The one I have up at the moment has ventilation holes in it, but I do not think they a necessary if the machine is operated at its rated level 500 to 700 watts, the two things that can destroy these alternators and any others for that matter is prolonged overload in excess of 1000 watts and not furling properly as the centrifugal force distorts the rotor causing magnets to rub. The other killer is the shorting switch brake if used when they are already very hot as to short the windings can cause very high amps at very low volts and nearly instantly cook the windings as the inertia of the blades packs a fair amount of kinetic energy. If you must use a shorting switch make sure there is enough resistance in circuit to dissipate the energy so it not done in the windings. The units are light and efficient and easy to work on and with, the blades are in my opinion the best I have seen on a small turbine and the price is right, the complete kit only cost a little more than a set of neo's for a AFAX. OK not the high output but id really performed in a low wind environment. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
The shorting brake problem is solved by using a 3 phase circuit braker as the switching device, as it is turned to the on position it will circuit brake at its rated capacity, thus freewheeling the mill. Suggest 10 amp or lower if available. Once braked my mills hardly revolve in high winds(to 50k/hr so far) Also by activating before the high winds. My two OEMS are working fine(but they don`t achieve the high destructive current on a 48v battery system) will advise when and if this changes. As yet have had winds to 50k/hr and no furling. Modifications were made to the furling system as per instructions. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
||||
| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Rastus, These Wind Gens are not like a AXFX as they have a iorn core stator with Neos giving iorn drag magnetic friction losses with minimal cogging, so I would put these are between a Good Dual F&P and a AXFX for performance once set up. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Fillm has kindly emailed me his further furling mods,(original furling mods are available as I`ve kept all emails) so hopefully I can get my units furling better. I have replied to your email, Fillm, on the 4M to keep others informed. I do not wish to be frustrated by incorrect assumptions by 4M members as illustrated earlier in this thread by Amack`s trials with these mills. I have a further safety circuit breaker of 15amp on the DC output of each mill. These have never tripped, in the time both mills have been in service(since May11). I drilled cooling holes 6*3/16 on windward side 6*5/16 on downwind side angled to pick up and exhaust air(as per Bob`s mod, but smaller holes). As stated in the thread OEM mills, my mills do not achieve much over 500watt peak(638watt peak recorded), logging now confirms this whether this is because I left the original wiring in the head, only 2.5mm2 from mill to rectfiers, my angle of attack is too much to achieve revs reqd., or as I have suggested Film`s logging has an error here. Current cloudy weather has allowed me to leave the mills on continually without overcharging batteries. I am getting an average of around 600watt/hr per day from both mills, the Selectronic inverters logger with current shunts for sensors agrees more closely with my DC clamp meter(records MAX) than the SC logger with hall effect sensors. I am tending to think shunts are more accurate and linear than the hall effect sensors I am using, have wired two sensors in series and logged, this has supported my thinking. Next I will try 2 shunts in series and log, just a matter of getting around to it. Regardless of my criticisms of the OEM`s, they are mighty little Mills although for my 48v system they are not ideal, but are giving good results with the cap-doublers at my not ideal wind site, I plan on switching back to cap-trebblers on one mill now I have logging for a test. My solar cells are the backbone of my system with the OEM`s putting that bit of icing on top. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Vic Nice to see you are having success with the little mills now, your results are very good considering a less than Ideal position for wind. Your wiring is a bit lighter than mine but on 48 volts that shouldn't be a big issue, I have finally got some more mills from Phill so can try out a 48 volt version, I was also able to get a five blade rotor from Phill to try out some other ideas I have. Interesting what you say about the hall effect sensors I have been thinking of shifting my shunts so I can use them if ever I get around to doing a bit of logging. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Vic , The info and other revelant modifications that I have done I openly share with the people that have purchased these kits from myself , recently I was alerted to a company that had used photos taken from here of my mill and the one I sent to Amack, to sell these on ebay as 1kW mills , they have since removed the photos from their listings after a not so polite email. After that episode,I do not wish to be the Free Research & Development dept for other customers of OEM or the Mob selling these on ebay as out of the box 1kW mills when they have not shed a drop of sweat into rectifying the problems themselves Any of my photos / instructions / emails I have sent with regards to making these a good mill are between myself and that person and will have them removed from the post if used with out permission, but in saying that if someone else wants to spend the time to post their own info & pics that they have done then I have no problem with that. [quote=norcold] I do not wish to be frustrated by incorrect assumptions by 4M members as illustrated earlier in this thread by Amack`s trials with these mills. I also get a bit frustrated when I try to help by passing on mods that help performance and get flack , I doubt if the manufacturer or other sellers would do the same . As I have limited amount of these left its getting to the point where I will be glad to see them gone. [quote=norcold] or as I have suggested Film`s logging has an error here.[/quote] This seems to be an ongoing assumption you always seem to bring up which always seems to be directed at claims of overstating what peaks I have seen/logged. My loggers are constantly being checked by a PL60/PLS2 shunt as the current from both mills is first read by the Alegro's and then by the shunt/PL60 . I calibrate them to the best of my ability and check the accumulated A/hrs on the PL60 against the accumulated Watt/hrs so that 1A/hr = 53W/hrs . I am sorry if you can not accept that these mills can peak at 1500W+ ,and definatly do not recomend trying to push them that high as you can see from the smoked stator pics I sent you and do not use this as a rating to mislead. Here is a LINK to a vid I did a while back , it shows the OEM ( OZ 500-48 ) Lower logger Display in 20~30klm at outputs over 500W. [quote=norcold] [Regardless of my criticisms of the OEM`s, they are mighty little Mills although for my 48v system they are not ideal, but are giving good results with the cap-doublers at my not ideal wind site, I plan on switching back to cap-trebblers on one mill now I have logging for a test. My solar cells are the backbone of my system with the OEM`s putting that bit of icing on top. I think they are quite a good little 48V mill with the Caps to fill in the low wind side , with the quad and doubler running in paralell it tracks the wind power very well , the biggest problem to date has been the furling which now seems to be in controll and has definatly knocked out the big numbers on my mill so far. Bob , I have not had a problem with the hall effect alegro type although they do need some filtering to smooth things out , I have 50A and 100A and have found the 100A to be good . They also make a version that is not bi-directional which Pete found after I sent him one of the bi-directional ones to play with . I have not used one at present but apparently they solve a lot of the noise problems at 0 Amps. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| Rastus Guru Joined: 29/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 301 |
Hi Bob and Phill M, Thanks for the further explanations.They sound a great mill for getting the most out of low wind speeds which is most of the time across Aus.The comparison I made was a loose one,looking at good output(better than F&P),a little too good when they wind up(AXFX),not meaning the construction.While there's no doubt a lot of personal pride and satisfaction in making an AXFX,the molds-jigs ect adding to the time of the build,would certainly make these a top runner for choice.It's disappointing to see the flack you've copped has left you dazed Pill M.The improvements you've made have really lifted them to another level.Well done,Cheers Rastus see Rastus graduate advise generously |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All We all have our own ideas on what is best or not best with all things we do, and it is good to experiment with different ideas as that is part of our hobby, we stuff up a lot of things because we do not follow the beaten track or the direct instructions but we have fun doing it. These mills have a lot of potential and the potential to self destruct as well, all things can be pushed past their limits in the name of improvement, so what do we want a mill that will reliably produce 500 watts or push it to 1500 watts for a short time before it blows like a hotted up car. The old reliable car that just keeps chugging along is proffered by most. We know from our experience with these mills that the other importer has gilded the lilly advertising them as a out of the box 1000 watt mill and Phill has been able to bring this to our notice, for which we thank him. The potential for many hours of fun is there with Phills mills and some of the results are great others let out the magic smoke. As I said before the kit could be had for a little more than a set of neo magnets, so it is is good value, but do not expect beer for a water price. In saying that they can still be upgraded to a beer level with a bit of TLC. We do this for fun. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
| norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Yeah you fellows are correct. I have a hunch that the different peak readings will be covered by the difference between a grid tie inverter and batteries. I think if we experiment down this path we will find batteries when close to fully charged will not accept a high current rate from these mills. They certainly load up and do not increase in revs to much even with 50k winds. As I said this is only a hunch one that I posted before hoping to get some understanding. My understanding here is very limited, so if any of you have some understanding on this would much appreciate a post that may help us clear this up. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
||||
| tomqu7 Senior Member  Joined: 09/11/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 168 |
TO FILL M OR ANY BODY i HAVE OEM WINDPOWER 2 KW TURBINE MAX 3 KW TURBINE LOCATED IN VICTORIA DOWNUNDER DID NOT GET TOWER IN BOX MAKING ONE NEED SPECIFICATIONS i NEED TO BUY WIND INVERTER ONLY ONE IN OZ IS SMA WINDY BOY BUT i NEED VOLTAGE OF TURBINE TO WORK OURT INVERTER INTEND TO PUT 3 OR 4 UP I HAVE 3 NOW 1.3 METRE BLADES AND 2 KW MAX 3 KW TURBINE MANUFACTURER WHISPERING WINDS CHINA SAY OLD MODEL AND THEY HAVE NO SPECIFICATIONS WHISPERING WINDS HAVE A 3 KW ON WEBISTE BUT MAX POWER 2.2 KW ANY HELP APPRECIATED TOMQU7@BIGPOND.COM |
||||
| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Tom , As i sent in the email to you , I recently helped modify 2 for a person in NSW and are direct Grid Tie and work exceptionally well , you have my email if you want to discuss options . PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| Page 4 of 5 |
|||||
 Print this page |
