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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178
Posted: 02:28am 07 Feb 2010
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'Tules I'm just gathering (free) bits I will need to make an AXFX, no point "gathering" stuff I cant use,
i'll hit up my mate for 3 more.
plan would be to use the 50x 12 round magsLuck favours the well prepared
MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329
Posted: 05:58am 28 Feb 2010
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Update:
I'm almost finished with the ax-fx alternator. It cogs like there's no tomorrow, but I was expecting that, based on its design. It's just the first one built; my intention is to use it as a "benchmark" to build more.
Second design is already on the drawing board and will likely be 3-phase instead of 1-phase (the current one).
The first attempt is hand wound and I'm changing the way I do things, so the second go-round will be easily wound using my lathe to spin enameled wire onto the spools.
I'm starting out with the blades set at full-dig (45-degrees against the wind) and I'm not going to build in any furling until I see if it's even needed. With blades set that steep, it's unlikely it'll over-speed anyway.
I'll throw up some pictures as soon as it looks more like a generator and less like an alien space craft!
Late afternoon update: Grrrrrr . . . well it makes electricity. it makes my tongue tingle, but not much more. Too much resistance in the coil wiring, I suspect. I'm going to rewind it with larger wire and try again. I'll be back in a minute with some pictures . . . .
Here's why it cogs. The little neo magnets pass through a gap in a soft iron core of low hysteresis. Even with soft iron, it still cogs like crazy.
Here's a top view. The blade hub will eventually mount on the end of the shaft extending to the right-hand side as shown here. Yes, I cannibalized my faceplate; no worries, I can build another.
This shot shows all the little 1/4' x 1/4" neo magnets press-fit into the HDPE wheel. Every other one is a "N", so the flux changes back and forth as each one passes through the cut in the pick-up coil core.
See, I told you it was tiny! That little light bulb dangling on the end of a wire is evidence of my optimism. And, no . . . it didn't light up even with a drill motor driving it. Fun build, even though it didn't work any better than it did.Edited by MacGyver 2010-03-02Nothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 04:18am 01 Mar 2010
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I guess I will just have to wait patiently while you get this cog prone design out of your system.... otherwise I would have to bang my head on the keyboard ......
Nicely done though.... just a shame it was never going to change the world....
..........oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329
Posted: 05:09am 01 Mar 2010
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Bottom line here is it's really a chore making a teensy-weensy ax-fx alternator the way everyone else is doing it. This seemed easier, partly because it took me a long time to get my head around "your" design and also due to the fact that I had a pile of 1/4" x 1/4" neo magnets already.
These little magnets -- do you think I could merely manufacture another HDPE wheel and do the "accepted" design or would the coils be so small, it still wouldn't work?
Hey, it's not a total loss; it'll make a dandy paper weight and unusual conversation piece. See, optimism at it's best! Nothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 06:50am 01 Mar 2010
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At least if you ditch the iron, it will turn in the wind... and make something..
How many magnets do you have left to use up?
I have no doubt that the normal design will scale down. It will not be fabulous, but should work well enough to charge a battery, and spin in the wind without a problem.
........oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329
Posted: 06:59am 01 Mar 2010
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The shop is pitch black and freezing; I'll check tomorrow and get back to you. I think I have probably more than enough mags to do two wheels at 16 magnets each.
Not sure how I'll wind the coils. Maybe I'll use a pattern like I saw somewhere here; it was a kit offered online and used something you called "skein" or whatever.
I'm a bit worried I have already placed the magnets too close to each other. I read somewhere here that as a magnet leaves a coil, the next one should be entering onto it. If that's the reality of it, the coils will have to be rather closely-spaced or segmented or something. Heading out onto thin ice here; I can almost hear it beginning to crack!
Well, that's the fun of all this, eh? This is where we get in touch with our "erroneous zone", right?
Maybe I can salvage this project by just making a few changes.
Yikes!Edited by MacGyver 2010-03-02Nothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 01:45pm 01 Mar 2010
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Best put it in a box marked 'learning curve' .
My box here is almost full .
Its fun though, tinkering with small scale generators despite being surprisingly difficult to get any meaningful power out of them .
If you do go into the three phase versions (recommended) I would suggest you study the connection methods of the individual coils carefully - A while ago Dinges posted a link to very nice pictorial site, even better if one can read German but the table is clear enough. I could translate if you are stuck..
I found out the hard way about this magnet/ coil number & connection ratio - not possible to change connections on epoxy encapsulated coils either Klaus
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 03:33pm 01 Mar 2010
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It would make a good aneomometer by turfing the coil and adding a hall effect sensor.
Or perhaps you could keep the coil less all the iron bits and use an analog meter recalibrated to wind speed.
If you are short on for a paper weight then it would work for that to.
Hi there , thanks for powercroco link helpfull link .
I just make a light rear variation report has this post afflicted, about CLUTCH.
Why don't you use a clutch of treedozer or a clutch motorbicycle , you can adjust the runners weight to match with your blade .
I thought has the use of a clutch of scooter and his double variator also to play with reductions and the point of starting, and it is rather solid mechanics.
Thx and see you
Bidouille aka Fred
MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329
Posted: 07:19pm 25 Mar 2010
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Fred
Well, thanks for the information. Unfortunately the silly thing I built doesn't do squat, so I'm in the process of building an actual axial-flux generator with magnet pairs that spin about a static stator.
In a nutshell, I'm kinda starting over, but I've grown used to that, so it's not anything earth shattering. I'll post pictures and results as soon as I have some of each.
. . . . . Mac
PS: "Big" Mac is down nearly 20 pounds! Nothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas
Perry Senior Member Joined: 19/11/2009 Location: Posts: 190
Posted: 01:46am 26 Mar 2010
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It seems like it would be easy to scale down the ax-fx design using the supplies you have on hand. I'd start with the standard otherpower design which is extensively documented all over the internet. If you have the mags group them in groups of three or so. Go for 12 mags or mag groups per disk. You'll have to be crafty to create a thin stator but that could be fun.
If all else fails you can buy a small gen from winstuffnow like this one for only $37 but then again, where's the fun in that.
http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/mini-gen.htm
Perry
MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329
Posted: 04:51am 26 Mar 2010
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Perry
I'm holding out for some larger magnets. The ones I have are extremely powerful, but also extremely small (about 1/8" thick and 1/4" long). These small magnets make the pick-up coils miniscule. I'll just have to bite the bullet and get some 1" by 1/2" or larger ones when I have extra $.
Our economy is dragging its behind right now. I'm okay financially only because I'm a good planner and am debt free, but I can't justify dropping a hundred bucks on a pile of magnets just now.
Thanks for the encouragement.Nothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas
Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566
Posted: 08:28am 26 Mar 2010
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MacGyver;
it didn't light up even with a drill motor driving it. Fun build, even though it didn't work any better than it did.
Mac I,ve been looking at some of the pictures you posted a while back and I see something that may be causing you trouble.
If your lathe faceplate is Steel it makes a magnetic path to the opposite pole and therefore less flux through the Coil center. Try to get more air gap between coil Metal and face plate.
Your Coil mounting clamp should be aluminum if it is not already. One other note, this number of turns on a iron core coil can ZAP! you. Here's a test you can do, Connect your coil as wound momentarily to a battery 6 volt or more. then disconnect the wire quickly. the blue spark is voltage. A good way to see this is to ground one side and strike the battery post a glancing blow.You can tell the difference between high current spark because the voltage spark can jump an air gap 1/16-+ inch
Though I doubt it would harm you, it could be unpleasant.
Edited by Greenbelt 2010-03-28Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True?
Why don't u try to stack magnets , you'll have twice the power by stacking the same magnets .
To understand well i copy this from a european maget dealer :
""""Yes, but only for sufficiently flat disc magnets.
"Sufficiently flat" means:
The height of the pile should not exceed half its width.
If you keep piling up, the force does increase, but increasingly less. It strives towards a certain value, which will not be exceeded, no matter how high the pile is.
Example:
1 S-10-01-N => 0,5 kg
2 S-10-01-N => 1,0 kg
3 S-10-01-N => 1,5 kg
4 S-10-01-N => 1,9 kg
5 S-10-01-N => 2,1 kg
10 S-10-01-N => 2,9 kg
50 S-10-01-N => 3,8 kg
1000 S-10-01-N => 3,9 kg
Please note: The force between the top magnet and the rest of the pile might be much smaller than the force between the pile and the steel plate. Hence, under strain the pile could rip apart somewhere in the middle, even when the theoretical adhesive force was not reached yet. """"
And for more power to with the same mag. why dont you put magnets dimensioned the one of the others in order to increase entire surface.
If you somme the two solutions you'll have bigger power available.
MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329
Posted: 05:00am 27 Mar 2010
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Greenbelt
The faceplate is aluminum. The "C" part with the windings is iron with low hysteresis (it came from a transformer). The wire is #22 I think and there are a zillion turns, which as you say, might be a problem.
I had thought on my own of rewrapping the pick-up coil with heaver gauge wire, but haven't gotten around to that as yet. I think the biggest problem is the magnets are just too darned tiny.
Oztules tried to talk me out of building something with cogging capabilities, but I foolishly ignored his advice. I've since changed my ways and am in the process of getting enough magnets together to build a true ax-fx alternator. Our economy is sucking hind tit and I'm feeling some of that too, so until I'm a little more "bucks-up" I'll remain in the planning stages.
When I have results, I'll share them here.Nothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas
Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566
Posted: 06:57pm 27 Mar 2010
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MacGyver,
Ok Mac, Just checking. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True?
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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