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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 01:09pm 06 May 2018
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Mark, about the re starting issue. I had that while experimenting recently with a test board, it turned out the VFB was not set correctly. Once that was set the EG1810 started up and ran with even a wrong primary toroid winding (34V) but, being powered from my bench supply the output voltage would not adjust higher than 170V AC. Investigating why I discovered that the bench supply voltage - set to 55V without a toroid - had collapsed to 30V DC . This would not run any load but the sine wave looked OK.
I think you will get there, it took me time too . Its a lot of little things that have to be just right, once you have figured that out you are winning.
It appears that you and Aaron need more soldering practice . I have not seen dry joints here for a very long time but did miss soldering the odd joint occasionally. I always clean the board very thoroughly and inspect every joint under a magnifying glass. If you do not have one of these neat illuminated ones, they are cheaper than a digital oscilloscope and would sneak past the SWMBO test easily.Klaus
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 09:53pm 06 May 2018
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Thanks Klaus, The restarting problem was odd, it would get to voltage and then the choke would make a click sound and restart, you could see the sine wave rebuild and get to voltage, it would stay there for a little while and the process would repeat.
Re solder, it wasn't a dry joint it was actually not touching A part of the board had tracks burned and the tab of the IC chip holder didn't contact the rest of the track properly, looking from above it looked fine, but from the side a bit you could see a gap. The other issue was a burned track, to the eye and even under a glass it looked perfect, it was still painted over, when you scratched below it looked like a solid copper track, but nup it just didn't conduct, so bridged that gap and it worked again. There are probably similar issues on the power board. This is why I thought it's just better to start with fresh boards.
One other thing I'll do is clear out my shed where I have a proper workbench and good lighting, I can work on it in any light or weather and keep the back deck area tidy.
I'll get there Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 09:19am 07 May 2018
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Not odd Mark, the EG1810 is meant to do that if something is not right.
I suggest you dig out the spec pages of this device and read it cover to cover.
Its a clever little critter, testing if everything connected is right.
One thing I learned: It does not turn on instantly (at least mine does not) when the 'ON' switch is thrown. There is a pause when it does the checking thing and then it ramps up the voltage. If something is still not right it will turn off and then try again. Does that for a number of times (see specs how many) and if the problem persists it stays off permanently and the status LED blinks its code, telling what was wrong.
If that happens with mine I have to re start the EG1810 from scratch by removing and re applying 5v power to it. Oztules version has a reset line that shorts out the power rail, try pushing that if the thing is re starting. If it does not start properly after that you still have gremlins hiding on your board. Klaus
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 10:38am 07 May 2018
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From what Mark told me I think the EG8010 is being reset, it is not pausing like it normally would with under volts etc. It stops and immediately starts its soft start routine.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 02:18pm 07 May 2018
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Well, in that case I suspect a power issue. Mark might monitor the 5V line to see if it remains rock steady during start up. Also monitor pin 6 EG1010 (SPWMEN), it goes high at 'ON' and low at 'OFF'.
Perhaps there was just too much damage to the board & wiring to it.Klaus
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 10:16pm 07 May 2018
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Excellent point tinker.
It should be noted that if you don't pull pin 6 to ground or 5v, it will oscillate between the two and be totally unstable.... you have me wondering if this has been a problem all along for him... poor soldering included.
So we will be clear about this.... do not start up the control card unless you turn pin 6 on or off definitively.... don't allow it to float under any circumstance.. or the spurious signals it puts out may blow your fets into a big torroid tranny...
You may get away with it in a EI core tranny.... but noises will erupt to show it's distaste for this condition.
................oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 05:22am 08 May 2018
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well I'm not wasting any more time on those boards to try and find out.
Using fresh boards is just a smarter option than stuffing around with damaged ones.
If someone wants those wretched boards they can muck around with them, PM me your address.Edited by renewableMark 2018-05-09Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 07:32am 08 May 2018
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You have mail Mark.... I want to get to the bottom of this if I can.
.......oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 07:43am 08 May 2018
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All yours mate. Be warned they have had a few nasty burns, god knows what's wrong with them now. More than likely numerous problems have been added on top of the initial one.
I think it's a waste of time considering the price of new boards but you go for it.
I'll take the transformer off the control board but will leave the rest inc caps as I want all new out of the packet stuff for the next build.Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
Mulver Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 160
Posted: 08:43am 08 May 2018
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Dr Oztules on the case! This will be interesting!
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 09:46am 08 May 2018
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No worries Mark, just give me the specs of the tranny you used so I can emulate it.
Mine were 14v.... and the specs of your torroid .. ie when you tested it on the mains, what was the primary voltage you were getting..... 27v, 28v, etc that should be enough to emulate your setup.
I know the boards work properly, as clockman sent me some to make up to test, so I know them to be sound... so just a matter of finding out where the gremlins lay.
Your journey on the dark side has frustrated the hell out of me... I want to know why...come to think of it, I always want to know why....
I will try to get it done quickly, in case it is not your or the boards fault, and it is something else in your set up ... we don't want your new ones suffering the same fate if it is something else in your build.....as the tranny won't be on it.. TEST it to make sure it is sound.... the fluctuating voltages are a problem... make sure it is not due to a tranny fault... that would be sad.
........oztules Edited by oztules 2018-05-09Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 11:45am 08 May 2018
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Checking why this never happened to my version of control board I see that there is a permanent 10K resistor from pin 6 to ground.
I see no such resistor on the PDF version of the ozinverter.
This could mean if there is a crappy ON/OFF switch, poor connections to it or one tries to turn it on by connecting wires there is a chance of EG1810 instability.
Perhaps worth while to add that pull down resistor as a safety feature?Klaus
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 01:07pm 08 May 2018
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Sounds like a sensible addition tinker.
.....oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 10:05pm 08 May 2018
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Ahhh that's interesting, that small plug for the on off probably got connected /disconnected 100 times. That could be one of many issues I was having.
Edit, OK you got me curious, I tested it, I got my son to wiggle the cable around to the point of the plug almost coming out, but it still gave a good connection, so that doesn't appear to be an issue here. I got him to put the plug out completely, and it still gave a connection with only a tiny bit of the plug connected. Results were good with beep and ohm test.Edited by renewableMark 2018-05-10Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548
Posted: 02:33am 10 May 2018
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What a fantastic run of posts,congratulations Mark and all those great men lending a hand,it's so nice to read all the help and your perserverance ,Mark ,really magic.
I,ve called out for help in the past ,so I know what it means,it's so nice to have this great forum where everyone is dedecated and helpful.
Thanks to Glenn for the many years of enjoyment he's given all of us ...
BruceBushboy
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 04:02am 17 May 2018
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It turns out that it has everything to do with the on/off switch and it's relative position to the boards??????
It can be overcome by putting the earth side directly to ground ( bypass the 1k to ground), and putting decoupling caps ( 104 and a 10uf ceramics). This kills the interference that can get into the switch lines if they are long....
......oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 07:07am 17 May 2018
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BIG thanks Oz, no way in hell I would have worked that out.
Is that a good idea for all Clockman boards? Or did my one just come up with something odd?
Also on the other thread you said that a glancing short of the reset terminals makes it go pop, but a push button was ok, could that benefit from a resistor at all?Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 07:58am 17 May 2018
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You may not have followed the earlier threads when I was first playing with these things.
I mentioned I had had history with pin 6, and that was because of the weird behavior of pin6. This was due to the noise that was introduced tryoing to use a single throw single pole switch.... it depended on the length of wires used, and position.. so I abandoned it..
Later Clockmanm and Mad went with the pin 6, while I was still messing with it, and using the temp pin instead.
In the finish, I found that using pin 6 on a retro design where pin6 was not envisiged, worked best... ie push pin 6 upwards not down, and run it to +5 or gnd via a switch.... never looked like faulting.
Now we are back to similar system I failed at in the first place.
I suspect it works with a box, and neat short wiring, or decoupling caps seems to tame it too... so folks can experiment with it.
It seems to not blow things up, but the tranny makes some wicked noises when indecisive.
We must remember that the chip is trying to blow itself up every 50 thousandth of a second ( approx). Only luck and good management keeps things from breaking. Any slip up will be fatal.
A combination of testing things, and base stupidity, has left your unit with only 2 fets/bridge....ran out, but that was expected when you play with these things. Once running they just keep going, but when playing, something always goes wrong.... for me it was a stupid dead short, the glancing short on the reset, and can't remember what else, but thats enough to burn up a few fets for no decent reason.
They are really amazing, pulling 4-5 kw with only 2 fets/leg... wow...
Don't know about the reset thing. A push button works well, shorting with a wire or screwdriver seems fatal. You must run the power down so the 2110 uvlo works, and the 8010 resets... if you start resetting, but the uvlo on the 2110 is not ready, then trouble. Not sure how else to shut down the 8010 fast and fully..... given it no thought, as has never been a problem for me... may have to now that I know it can be problematic.
It's packed up ready for post tomorrow.
Edit..... more thoughts on the rset problem. Shorting it out with a pushbutton, does a few things. It drops the voltage to zero fast, and when released, causes the voltage to rise quickly, but not too fast. In the early days I found too rapid V rise caused the egs002 board at that time to blow up. So, thats why the 120r is there. This can be increased in 48v systems, and this will soften the short more, and the rise will be a bit more gentle. A series resistor may help with the current in this situation, but it may also cause other problems with not emptying the 100uf cap out fully, and that could cause a hickup too.
Open circuiting and waiting would work to drop the V in the cap, but restart would be very quick, and once again, too short of a wait will cause varied results... probably as bad as a quick short did. An electrical timed short would work, ie any signal would drive a .25 sec shortcircuit, then let go... but gee a push button works well too.
I might try a larger value for 120r and smaller C .... and see how that changes the way it works.... That way, a very short short, may discharge the smaller cap enough, and still have the same sort of time constant to recharge it on start.
......oztulesEdited by oztules 2018-05-18Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
tinyt Guru Joined: 12/11/2017 Location: United StatesPosts: 438
Posted: 02:27pm 17 May 2018
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Anybody measured the voltage between ground and the capacitor end of the 120r when the unit is operating?
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 513
Posted: 06:49pm 17 May 2018
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On mine it was 48.2 v with 48.6 v input.. steady state idle... not under load but doubt much in it.. I think it works !!
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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. This would not run any load but the sine wave looked OK.
. Its a lot of little things that have to be just right, once you have figured that out you are winning.
. I have not seen dry joints here for a very long time but did miss soldering the odd joint occasionally. I always clean the board very thoroughly and inspect every joint under a magnifying glass. If you do not have one of these neat illuminated ones, they are cheaper than a digital oscilloscope and would sneak past the SWMBO test easily.
