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Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 12:37am 24 Apr 2018
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All this brings back memories. Searching through some of my old stuff, I just found an old 1996 company newsletter from Bytecraft that mentions "State 3" and the "Status 600" which is another product I designed all the hardware for. That is why I kept that old newsletter.
It also mentions right down the bottom the "Inspire" project which is probably my proudest achievement. That was a 2.5 million dollar project that put all the programmable coloured lights on the spire on top of the Victorian Arts Centre. Over twenty years on, and its still going every night. Whenever I see those lights on that spire twinkle and change colour at night, I think to myself I designed all of the electronic hardware for that.
Edited by Warpspeed 2018-04-25Cheers, Tony.
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 06:43am 24 Apr 2018
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Must be satisfying to create such a system, I knew the fellow responsible for that metal spire, he reckons it was his biggest challenge of his career, if you look at it closely you can understand why.
All that effort so some poonces can prance around on a stage wearing girly tights.
My new driver chips came today, I'll test it again tomorrow CBF now.Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 07:44am 24 Apr 2018
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OK decided to go and have a look at it. New driver chips (rs 2110) Voltage still jumping all over the place. I connected ground and put the probe on each heatsink
This is left heatsink
This below is right heatsink
And this is the output from torroid, ground lead on one output side, probe on other side
As you can see it's pretty messed up. Something is wrong, I just don't know what.Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 07:56am 24 Apr 2018
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Your right it is something.
Look at the gate signals to the MOSFETS and work back from there to see if you get a good signal. Both sides will make square wave when first turned on.Edited by Madness 2018-04-25There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 08:49am 24 Apr 2018
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What is the voltage on the 12v line.... and is it varying too ( use scope perhaps ) What does the 5v line look like going into the 8010. Is it seeing steady 5v.
I am wondering about the 12v line, as if it fluctuates, then the uvlo may be drifting in and out... and maybe the zenner is 13v not the 18v I use.
So the drivers may be starving.
.......oztules
Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 513
Posted: 09:22am 24 Apr 2018
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Oz you just reminded me of a batch of bd139 / bd140's i got early on another project. .. they registered proper gain on small signals and were fine for what I needed them for. However i used the bd139 (npn) for a emitter follower (current gain, what your using the tip npns for) and the gain dropped off dramatically. .. so instead of say 100 gain at 100ma they were only 20-30, and the voltage was sagging badly. Ended up having to ditch them and use something overkill but with enough gain..definitely check both steady state voltage AND on your oscilloscope. .I think it works !!
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 09:32am 24 Apr 2018
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I've had a few G&T's, not a good combo for working with voltages. I'll look in the morning, I did use an 18v zener for feed though. The tip 35 when I tested it with the same scenario yesterday had a steady 5v.
Changing to new chip drivers today made no difference. I swapped the crystal just as I felt like it.
Basically it is in the same situation as at p37, no capacitors and 4 fets, back on that first test it was fine, producing a nice sine.
Some part has failed.
Forgot to say I put new fets in too just to rule that out.
This happened because I put in a ribbon cable that was ass about, one end of the cable went to the incorrect side.
Something got fed the wrong voltage and blew it's nuts. Edited by renewableMark 2018-04-25Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 09:38am 24 Apr 2018
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I would very much doubt that was the reason. With this type of wiring it is ever so much easier to check connections.
The real 'reason' might have been the way I work on things like that. If it blows up I start afresh from the beginning, new PCB boards and all, thus changing many things at once rather than methodically one thing at a time until the problem is discovered.
I like working this way, its challenging and I learn a lot more in the progress. I had no time constraint and getting a working inverter in the end was a bonus, not a goal.
The "mountain of fets", BTW, was around 50 which number, with 16 at a time, is easily reached. I did blow a couple 4 fet versions as well.
The main thing is, I had fun building mine, did you enjoy building yours oztules?Klaus
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 09:42am 24 Apr 2018
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So scope ground and gate (left pin)?Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 10:45am 24 Apr 2018
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They just make that messed up signal all the time, when it's turned on the red LED stays constantly lit and it happily runs in that messed up state for as long as you have it turned on.
There aren't many parts on the control board that have "brains" is it worth swapping the scr?Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 12:22pm 24 Apr 2018
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It may be that the SCR is shutting it down, you just remove it completely for now.
If you are getting the correct wave forms without the power board connected it almost eliminates most of the control board from fault.
The chopped up square wave you are getting is is not good, I would be checking (via the ribbon cable) the resistance from each gate (LH pin) back to the IR2110 chips the top left and bottom left pins each connect directly to the gate resistor/diode. So you should measure 5.6 ohms on each one and there should be almost 0 ohms to the other end of the gate resistors. Then if nothing turns up there going through and funding where they cappy wave starts.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 12:39pm 24 Apr 2018
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I doubt the scr is doing anything at the moment, if in doubt, pull it out and run without it... just in case you have the wrong orientation, but that should most likely stop it fully.
"I'll look in the morning, I did use an 18v zener for feed though. The tip 35 when I tested it with the same scenario yesterday had a steady 5v."
This is not making much sense. The 18v zener should not only make 5v... use the scope on it, is it a steady 5v average, or a pulsing higher voltage. At 5v the 2110 should have shut down from under voltage lock out.... or are you measuring the wrong voltage, or confuse the two zeners ( one 5v6 or thereabouts, and one 18 or so ) I want to see 12v on pin 3 ..... and I want to know it is steady. If it is fluctuating, check the voltage on the end of 120R at the 100uf cap. There should be no ripple on any of these. If so we find out why.
We have to find this thing.....
What input voltage are you running.....min of >40v What voltage is on the 100uf cap What voltage is going to pin3 of the 2110 ( emitter of left hand top tip35c ) What voltage is the 8010 seeing ( emitter of tip35 right hand side ) Check for wave forms on the 12v and 5v feed ( should be flat ) Check waveform at input pins of the 2110 pins 10 and 12 to ground.
The wave at pin 12 to ground should match pin1 but for amplitude The wave at pin 10 should match pins 5 to 7 ( not to ground.. the fet sees the voltage across these pins for high side driving of the gate and source )
The same thing for the next 2110, and same pins.
If the waves don't match up, which ones don't... then we find out why.
Some reasons... 1. the uvlo is running because of ripple on the vcc (pin3)... why? 2. There is a problem in the fets board impedance... soldering, leads, fets... must be simple there somewhere. 3. dud 2110 ( unlikely unless you have recently blown the fets again ) If in doubt, disconnect the power board, and supply 48v to the control directly at the 120r resistor and ground.
If that solves it, the problem is in the gate driving on the power board. This could be putting a wrong resistor on the gate source which should be in the 20k region. Look for low impedance's to ground on the gates of the power board in this case, the fets themselves etc.
If it made no difference, then which 2110 was at fault is not playing the game?.
It is almost as though there is something stealing the power during the pulsing, and the voltage drops a bit, the uvlo kicks in , the voltage rises, and so uvlo lets it go again.... sort of thing... if this is the case... where is the low impedance that is doing this.
...........oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 10:38pm 24 Apr 2018
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Batt V 50.4v
100uf cap 44.5v
Pin 3 2110 18.4v at right pin of left tip35 17.9v at pin 3 of 2110 and steady on cro
Right side of right tip 35 5.17v and steady on cro
Pins 10 and 12 to ground are stuffed. I wasn't getting the whole wave on the screen the other day and didn't read them properly, now the whole wave is on the screen you can see they are rooted.
Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 10:51pm 24 Apr 2018
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Remove the IR2110 and check the pins again to see if the fault is coming from the EG8010, if that is good replace the IR2110.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 11:16pm 24 Apr 2018
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Finally worked out how to use this scope properly. Pins 10 and 12 on top 2110 socket are fine. Pins 10 and 12 on lower socket are all messed up This is without 2110 chips fitted.Edited by renewableMark 2018-04-26Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 11:36pm 24 Apr 2018
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Resistance checked between socket and corresponding pins on smd board and all o ohms, must be 8010. I have fitted two other ones, must be crap soldering or me overheating them when soldering.Edited by renewableMark 2018-04-26Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 11:50pm 24 Apr 2018
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Ok, pins 10 and 12 on the top one is the 50hz, and should both look the same, and be uniform square wave 50hz.
The bottom chip has the spwm on it, and your scope quality will determine what you can see clearly..... mine is pretty spotty.
However, it will look like two straight lines with fizz in the line. No vertical component if your still on the setting you use for 50hz.
As you up the frequency of the trace, it may resolve into variable width square waves, but mine does not go that well. On my second scope, I can get some resolution, but not clear.
What you can deduce is that the spwm is there, and there are no spurious waveforms... but for my equiptment, it is hard to define properly. I am guessing that what you are seeing on the bottom chip, may be fairly good. post pics if you can.
If so we move onto the next stage..... whats coming out of the 2110.
The top chip will have the same 50hz square wave, but higher voltage on both the outputs.... remember the high side will be not as defined as the low side in the top chip.
This is due to the voltage pump to create the voltage above the 48v supply... ie when the top fet conducts, it will pull the source up to the drain voltage... so suddenly you need 10-12v more than the supply to keep the gate 10 or more volts above the source... thats the diode and 10uf cap... so on long duration waves, the voltage will sag after the initial cycle turn on, so you will see a slope on the high side outputs on the 50hz chip ( top one).
Because of the speed of the 20khz on the lower 2110, there will be no discernible slope on these waves if you can see them ( mine can't).
On my scope, it is more like just two lines with "stuff" impressed on the line. There are no vertical components on my scope, so the waves are very well formed, and get from zero to max instantly as far as my old scope thinks.
So... pic of the high side signal into the lower 2110, and the output of both top and bottom 2110.
To recap, the top 2110 is all 50hz, the bottom 2110 is all 20khz ( 23?). The pin 1 is for the low side fets, and the 5&7 pins are for gate source drive of the high side fets.
So test and more pics of those 4 waveforms on the input of 2110, and the outputs of the 2110.
..........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
johnmc Senior Member Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282
Posted: 11:58pm 24 Apr 2018
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Good Mark. I had no end of trouble soldering the SMD 8010 until I started using the drag method,see utube, to solder the SMD cheers johnjohnmc
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 12:13am 25 Apr 2018
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OK I'll post the pics of sockets first
Top socket pin 10
Pin 12 top socket
Pin 10 bottom socket, same setting
Pin 10 bottom socket, changed setting to 10us
Pin 12 bottom socket 10us
Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 12:29am 25 Apr 2018
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Try your other EG8010 if you get the same result it is probably safe to assume it is okay and that is the best you will see with that CRO.Edited by Madness 2018-04-26There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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building mine, did you enjoy building yours oztules?
