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VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 08:48pm 16 Jan 2015
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In my experience the plates are formed after 5 or so cycles so I think they are just looking for an excuse there
I have been going to about four forums for a couple of years and have seen many threads where they are saying that it took up to 100 cycles before their batteries started taking charges better and some say it is a good thing cause those batteries last longer. I don't discount what you say as I don't really know.
Answer: The first 5 or 6 cycles is used to condition the plates and work the electrolyte into the plate matrix, this is to give a electrochemical balance to the cell that is a starting point for normal use, and yes the capacity of the cell will increase over the first series of cycles providing the cell is not fully discharged as the sulphate starts to form within the microstructure of the plate material. I have seen batteries wrecked by over cycling in the early stages of use by people trying to get full rated capacity from the battery.
Quote:
when we where installing battery power units on the farms in the dark ages one of the things you did with all battery sets was to do 3 charge cycles and then get the acid bottle
I am going to do an internet search for this. I know I don't want mixed acid. Are there any pitfalls in what I am looking for or looking to avoid? I am not sure what to look for.
Answer:
It is quite difficult to get concentrated acid from suppliers as there a lot of safety issues, what I used to do was to concentrate bought electrolyte by heating to remove water from the solution using a chemical still available at science suppliers, no need to go for full concentration for what we need to do.
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Power you put into the battery above float voltage is wasted in heat and destroying the battery structure so should be avoided if possible that is where the desulphators come in.
The problim is that these are really tall and narrow batteries and the manufactuer says that the acid is heavier then the water and to get proper mixing it takes Boiling/adjitation (or what ever word they used.) or other problims are caused. I do know that it takes some mixing to get changes while charging cause I can see it in my sg readings.
Answer:
At float voltage there should be a gentle gassing from the plates, in most cases this is enough to stop stratification of the electrolyte unless the weather is very cold,or the batteries have been left sitting for extended period. from this point a short excursion to equalization voltage will do the trick but not for hours at a time as I have think this does as much damage as good to the cell. I use a unregulated solar panel across my bank so every so often it takes the batteries up to equalization voltage but not with enough amps to do any damage to the cells
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Your overnight draw of 15 KW is really working the batteries a bit to hard considering there is no input over that time, you may consider a 5 amp trickle from the mains to reduce battery stress overnight and use grid feed during the day to feed it back in to the grid once you have reached float value. the 3.5 KW overnight would would stop you going over the knee voltage and help keep the batteries out of the higher internal resistance zone.
If the specs were correct I should be able to take 38400 watts from the battery and be at 80% dod. 15000watts shoud be about 70% soc. The trimetric says it is about 60% soc and the sg on the low cell says it is about 20% soc. It is the one thing I can fix. I could just raise the low voltage disconnect voltge. I am not grid tie but can use the grid to charge my battery, however I can not use it to charge while running loads off the battery, I either run loads or charge when using the grid.
I have no other way to charge 48 volts but the inverters. If I got the low cell up I should be well in the safe range of not dicharging below 50%. and if the battery did what it said I would be closer to 70% state of charge from 100% I don't try to get to 100% daily so it does have to be discounted some and 15000 watts is probly too much.
I will have to look at desulfators as I know you are using them and talking about them and building them in this thread but I haven't ever seen one or formed an opinion to look hard enough to understand yet.
I think first and foremost I intend to look up battery acid and where to get it.
Answer: I do not use my inverters to charge the batteries as I have cooked to many Inverters doing that, I use a elcheepo Chinese charger for float and boost as it works well, I know that a 48 volt charger is not so easy to get but I have made them for people using a torriod transformer from radio shack 240 volt primary 48 volt secondary and a bridge rectifier and a 10 amp circuit breaker, self resetting type.
I believe that the cost of running a trickle charger on the side is cheap insurance even if you cant return some to the grid.
Some plug and play GFI from China would do the job, connect directly across the solar bank and the MMPT circuit in them stops the power when it is a bit low while charging the battery but when the regulator shuts power to the battery when fully charged the panel voltage rises and diverts the power back into the grid automatically.
I can't wait to see your load test on your new/old batteries.
I cannot test the SG on my batteries as they are sealed type and the filler holes I put in only go to the chamber above the plate matrix so I have to rely on voltage readings to test cell charge and activity.
gww
Ps the trimetric said I used 260 amps from the battery last night but it is hard to put a voltage to this and see what it means in watts cause some of it was at voltages above 50 volts and who knows what the voltage sag was and how much was below 46 volts.
Unless you have a full tracking computer program it is very hard to be precise about any of these measurements, just a suggestion get a set of digital volt meters, very cheap on fleabay and put one across each cell and do a visual monitor during your load testing, can be quite an eye opener.
For longer life 20% dischage would be better but this still shouldn't be way out of line or I don't understand something.
A discharge of 20 % is about the minimum for deep cycle batteries and you will find that they are happier at 30 to 35% this will allow the battery to maintain full capacity without doing it harm.As you mentioned in the first paragraph.
By your description of you batteries they sound like a serious deep cycle set not a trumped up commercial battery marketed as deep cycle, contact your supplier and see if he can provide for you a expected cycle life for these batteries compared to depth of discharge, you will find it quite interesting.
All the best
Bob
Foolin Around
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 04:33am 17 Jan 2015
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Bob
The batteries are rated 1500 cycles to 80% dod. If used in fork trucks they want you to take them down to 80% even if it takes more then one day. They want an 8 hour use, 8 hour charge and 8 hour rest. They don't want oppertunity charging.
How ever they have a differrent chart that shows it is better to not go below 40% dod, so like every manufatuer, they give conflickting advice.
I have a tricle charger of sorts. I have two hugh piggot 500 watt turbines hooked strait to the battery however I live in a zone 2 wind area. The turbines put 180 watts in last night. Impressive right.
I used 700 watts of homade panels thruogh two cheap chinnise grid tie inverters for a year but man the efficiancy was only about 40%.
I am using outback inverters and they are monsters, They have pretty high tare losses but the charging doesn.t seem to hurt them to bad. I have 5600 watts of solar panels and don't really charge to much using the grid but there are times.
I checked the battery this morning after eq last night and it said I had used 130 amps and the trimetric had the battery at 83% soc and the sg on the high cell was 1.260 and on the low it was 1.240. The voltage was 49.2 volts with a 30 amp load.
I know you are working on sealed batteries but still after looking at some of them am excited to see what happens. Be carefull. When I hooked up my inverter the first time I used some scrap golf cart batteries to test it. when I put a circular saw on it one of the batteries blew up. It was impressive.
Good luck
gww
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 04:36am 17 Jan 2015
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bob
The batteries are rated 1500 cycles to 80% dod. If used in fork trucks they want you to take them down to 80% even if it takes more then one day. They want an 8 hour use, 8 hour charge and 8 hour rest. They don't want oppertunity charging.
How ever they have a differrent chart that shows it is better to not go below 40% dod, so like every manufatuer, they give conflickting advice.
I have a tricle charger of sorts. I have two hugh piggot 500 watt turbines hooked strait to the battery however I live in a zone 2 wind area. The turbines put 180 watts in last night. Impressive right.
I used 700 watts of homade panels thruogh two cheap chinnise grid tie inverters for a year but man the efficiancy was only about 40%.
I am using outback inverters and they are monsters, They have pretty high tare losses but the charging doesn.t seem to hurt them to bad. I have 5600 watts of solar panels and don't really charge to much using the grid but there are times.
I checked the battery this morning after eq last night and it said I had used 130 amps and the trimetric had the battery at 83% soc and the sg on the high cell was 1.260 and on the low it was 1.240. The voltage was 49.2 volts with a 30 amp load.
I know you are working on sealed batteries but still after looking at some of them am excited to see what happens. Be carefull. When I hooked up my inverter the first time I used some scrap golf cart batteries to test it. when I put a circular saw on it one of the batteries blew up. It was impressive.
Good luck
gww
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 04:17pm 17 Jan 2015
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Hi Gww
Sounds like you have a really good set of batteries there and I know what you mean about different standards for life expectancy, A fork lift has a series of heavy draws follower by inactivity this suits this style of battery better rather than what we do with a more or less constant draw over a longer period, this tends to create the sulphates more rather than a short sharp draw then recovery. The fork lift battery chargers have a built in desulphator and computer controlled charging profile, i think that's why the want high discharge so the computer picks up the profile and works within the load parameters from a set starting point.
I have friends that buy time expired fork lift batteries and desulphate them and get really good results, some I know of have done another 5 years and still going, the ones not fitted with desulphators do not do so well but still go for a couple of years.
They are 5 years old and replaced on a maintenance schedule from big companies, some have a bad cell but he guys that sell them replace any suspect cells before sale and sell them for a $ per AH good value.
I also have several wind mills but the output from them is very low on the average but in a wind storm they can do 50 amps.
That is a better overnight load that's what you should aim for, why is your overnight load so high at other times?
I have several w7 inverters but also found that they use a lot of power on standby about 8 amps, so I am replacing them with a LF power Jack inverter for an experiment as it has an idle current of 1 amp The outback inverters are very expensive here in Australia and a pension cannot be stretched that far.
If the Power jack works out the w7 inverters will be relegated to the workshop power to run welder and plasma cutter and small machines where they do not need to be on all the time and chew power for no results.
You really need to see if you can correct that low cell to balance your pack, mine is not so critical as I have a collection of 48 batteries in series parallel connections in the two banks so a lazy cell is not so evident as a single string and I use balance connectors for each 12 volt pair to keep them in sync to some degree.
next week I will connect bank 3 as well as now I have two shelves available due to rejected batteries so that will be another 700 AH. they where sitting in the workshop to run small machines through a 5 KW HF inverter and to take the charge from the wind mill but now I have the opportunity to reconfigure they can go in the racks but wired as a separate bank to run the W7 inverters.
The smaller Chinese GFI are nor as efficient as the normal GFI the one I run at the moment is 600 Watts and is good for 80 % I have 1.2 KW ones as well and on testing they are good for just over 90% but some I have bought do not work at all but he bits and pieces salvaged out of them is worth more than the inverter.
I did a 250 amp load test, short time as the load leads started to smoke with no worries on the 2 bank but when I do the inverter test I will do the first few cycles at 1000 watt then 2000 watt and then 3000 watt to try to get a load graph to compare with what I did before, compensating for the 250 AH less in each pack. then do a combined test as it would be in normal use. with the 1500AH combined.
All fun and games, at times I wish I had the money to get a couple of new sets of batteries and do something else with my time, my plane is sitting in the workshop waiting for me as are several other projects, got to live to 100 to do them all.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 10:01pm 17 Jan 2015
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Because I equalized them till ten pm the night before, less time to discharge. I was just showing the cell sg is .020 differance going up and down.
I bought mine just before I retired and on overtime pay. I bought the mounting plate, ac/dc breaker boxes, hub, mate and an mx60 cc off craigs list for $1500 ergo the testing with the scrap batteries. I wanted everything working before getting a new battery.
Lots of batteries and lots of inverters. I almost feel good for you that you have sealed batteries cause that would be a lot of sg checking.
The stuff out of them is only good if you know what you have and how to use it. I am watching though.
I don't know. look at me. I got all this money tied up in a new battery and now I am a worry wort. A guy has to be doing something.
I priced the reconditioned batteries but they were pretty high for what was probly a five year old battery.
I am sorry for the double post as the site kept calling me a spammer and I had to try to post it a couple times to get it to take.
Gww
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 10:43pm 17 Jan 2015
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Hi Gww
A case of start high and end up a bit higher by the sound of it, it still worries me that you are trying to equalize for so long and getting the same results for so long, you really need to do the acid trick to stop you worrying, you will end up with ulcers and the batteries will still be going happily along. Get some acid and get four 12 volt desulphators and you will be a lot happier.
Unfortunately I had no nest egg when put on pension so it has been a bit of a scrounge and swap along with mates rates on some things, I was lucky with the batteries as a friend of mine got the job to demolish a government building, he was going to scrap the batteries but decided I could use them in exchange for some consultant work for him.
The SG is a constant worry if you are checking all the time but I found on the old 32 volt setups we used to maintain that once it is corrected on installation it is not an issue unless you are overworking the batteries, and adding water all the time, if you use desulphators you will find that water levels will be more stable, I noted in your other forum you where adding huge amounts of water, this means to me you are doing a lot of overcharging and boiling hell out of the battery. Some flooded lead acid cells I resurrected mentioned at the start of this thread have been included in the workshop bank and I haven't put water in them for two years their float SG is a fraction low but I put that down to the fact that they where totally sulphated when I started with them and some of the sulphate hasn't been reconverted to acid in the electrolyte, but hey are still working at 90% of original capacity.
A good junk box is either a blessing or a curse.
I am saving for a set of batteries 24 volt pack in 2 volt cells, gell cell tubular plates 1250 AH for $7.5 K new with a life of 20 years for 50% discharge made in the good old USA not China. This would outlast me and no SG worries just keep them clean and monitor charge parameters and a volt meter on each cell to make me worry a bit.
No worry on the hiccough it does that sometimes, or worse still it looses your hard done typing into cyberspace, one day cyberspace will be full and it will all come crashing back on us.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 05:27am 18 Jan 2015
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Bob
I was eq the batt and it was at 70 degrees and the sg was at 1.280 snd I figured that I might charge till it hit 77-80 degrees and then I would be at a place that I wouldn't have to temp comp the sg. Sure enough when I hit the 80 degree mark I only had an sg of 1.275 which is what I thought would happen. When I first got the battery, the sellsman said to absorb at 57.2 volts and once a month eq till the battery got warm to the touch. I tried this for about 6 months and even with the long eq and heat generated I couldn't get the sg up to full. I then called the makers of the battery. I will say they have faith in their batteries and want them treated rough. Both seemed to like the heat as they think it helps break up any sufate. I did how ever read on their web site that if your battery gets over 36 degrees higher then the ambiant temp during normal charging that something was wrong with the battery. I had ask on that other forum about the next few times that I had to add water if I took a tiny bit of electrolite from the cells that are going over 1.300 and added to the low cell till they equaled out a bit, would that help. The advice I got was that it wouldn't be a good ideal cause I didn't really know the reason the cell was lower but it could be more sulfated then the other cells or have just a bit higher resitance than the other cells. They said that if it was sulphated that bringing the acid up would just destoy the battery sooner. Most thought if it wasn't hurting me to just keep using them as they are.
Good friend you got there.
The problim with the tall batteries is they really have no head room for water. The water will be right at the plates during cold weather and will raise almost to the top as the weather warms and during charging. I have used a pretty consistant amount since the battery was new and didn't notice much change whether charging with high voltage or low. I have questioned the maker and he thought with my usage that was probly normal. I did notice recently that my water usage has went down a bit lately. It might be a fluke and I will have a better Ideal over the next few months. I read on the rolls battery web site that if you have to add water more then once every two months, you are over charging. I think the rolls are built differrent and have more head room. I have worried I am over charging and I am worried I am under charging and I baelieve I could be doing both. IF I got enough sun to absorb at a lower votage for 6 hours it might work however even in summer I only have time to get 4 hours max and most time closer to 3. In summer my solar does not put out as much wattage at one time as it does in winter so the longer hours come out to about the same due to taking longer to get to absorb. More solar would help but like you I am on a budget. If your scrap batteries are working at 90% capasity you are probly in battery heaven cause that is nice.
Everything I read on they forums says gell is not good for re and that the really get hurt with one overcharge. I paid like $5000 for my battery and I wish I would have paid $6000 and got bigger (Though I would barily/not have the solar to support it) I have seen poeple on the forums say that they have used batteries like mine for 20 years and that is why I bought them cause I knew I was retiring and maby couldn't do it again in 5 years and if I have to do it now in 5 years I will probly be devorced. My wife is not nearly as excited about my solar and wind turbines.
I did see some desulphaters on ebay. There have been some very good debates on those other forums about the usefullness of desulfators. There hs been some concern also that they mess with some of the electronics like charge controllers.
What is suggested is that I find a way to charge just that cell or leave it alone and just use it. I also brought up maby changing that cell while the battery is new enough that a new one would match a bit closer rather then wait 5 years for failure. This would violate any warrenty if I had a failure that the battery sellers did agree with. I will probly just use it. I may try the desulfator depending on the concerns listed above, time and money.
gww
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 03:20pm 18 Jan 2015
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Hi gww
Swapping bits of electrolyte from one cell to another will not solve the problem as you would need to drain around 25 % of the electrolyte to achieve and it is hard to monitor results a bit of concentrated acid is much easier as it only takes a few days to get the effect.
I only found out your batteries where Fork Lift batteries from reading your other forum entries and I agree that the fork lift batteries do take more punishment than normal deep cycle batteries but it does shorten there life cycle my battery man in Brisbane told me that the life of fork batteries is about 5 years where as the same batteries in a solar use are good for 15 years These are good batteries but suffer the same limitations as any lead acid battery.
The heating of the battery does help remove sulphate from the plates but does it in the mechanical sense not the re conversion to acid as it should be, this results in the grunge that builds up in the bottom of the battery and can eventually kill the cell. The sulphate is boiled of the plate rather than recombining with the electrolyte.
You have boiled the battery enough to get rid of the sulphate and still the same SG so it is most probably low acid.
The old 2 volt cells on the 32 volt systems where about 30 inches high with around 4 inches of space above the top of the plates so a similar situation to yours but as they where glass containers you could see what was happening in the cell and the bubbling went from bottom to the top while charging and to a lessor degree when discharging this natural convection prevented stratification unless the temperature was very cold or they where left sitting without use for a long period.
I have used desulphators for the last 40 years in various forms and found them very effective reviving many batteries and saving some real basket case ones providing the cells are intact.
If it was not for the desulphators my battery banks I have been salvaging would be in the scrap yard so that is proof enough for me, I use infinity desulphators as i found them to be gentle but effective and can be left on the batteries all the time without any problems, some of the monster desulphators I have seen on the forums are good for a desulphation in quick time but they can't be left in the system.
If you have sensitive electronic devices near the batteries you can put some ferrite beads in the battery leads to reduce any pulse energy going down stream, I have never had a problem with any of my stuff but the pulses can be seen on a cro so they are there.
It is true that gell cell batteries are more fragile than lead acid but I have found that using the desulphators on a number of them that they do respond, for example my UPS from the office sat in the shed for ten years after closing the office and was at 0 volts a week on the desulphator had it working again and a month later it was to nearly full capacity as it would run the computer for 30 minutes.
So I believe the secret with Gell cells is to use the lowest recommended float voltage and leave the desulphators on to take care of equalization, while I have done this with old batteries that where US before I got them I haven't tried it on a new battery, but do believe the result would be the same.
They do suffer badly from dehydration as do all types of lead acid batteries so equalizing charges is going to shorten their life span, while they can be rehydrated it is a slow process as once the gell dries out it is very hard to get the moisture back into it.
The Infinity desulphators are about $50 on fleabay so 4 of them is not a big investment compared to the cost of your battery. Your battery should last 15 or more years if you stop worrying about it and boiling the guts out of it.
Bigger is better within limits but if you where to look at ways to reduce your overnight draw the ones you have are more than enough for the Job.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 04:31pm 18 Jan 2015
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I had heard that over voltage/charge put air pockets in the gell. As you use the low voltage approch I am sure you would do better.
Ferrite beads, another thing I will have to look up.
You know that tv we were talking about earlier. When my wife goes and stays a day or two to see the grandkids I do much better. She is not that enthused about turning it off when not watching it. I could move the circute for that back to the grid and probly cut my load quite a bit. I really shouldn't be hurting the battery that much unless I an really bad with math. That load should only have me at 65 to 70% soc. I am sure that 75% soc is better but you wouldn't think that would be that out of line. I did better last night as the turbines put 3kwh yesterday and I am sure some of it was at night. I only used about 170 amps again. But both of us were gone till time to sleep. My cc said I got 23kwh todays. My 50 gal oppertunity load got to about 135 degrees and shut off and I had to run hot water down the sink cause that is also my turbine load to keep the battery from overvoltage. That is the poroblim with a low discharge. I forced the batteries to flote after a 2 hour absorb cause they were as full as they get and why boil them 2 extra hours. We went through a whole month where I was only producing 3 kwh a day. worst stretch of clouds I ever saw. Now it has been sunny for about 4 days and I got nowhere to go with the juice. If I use enough and can come up with loads, sunny cold days will give me 27 to 32 kwh to play with.
It is hard to decide what the sweet spot is and the sweet spot changes with the weather.
gww
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 04:33pm 18 Jan 2015
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Had to delete a double post and forgot to start the last post with, Hi Bob.
gwwEdited by gww1 2015-01-20
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 06:42pm 18 Jan 2015
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No worries perfection tomorrow
Hi Gww
I have the same trouble with the TV wife puts it on and then not watch it so it is going in the background most time. It will have a failure one day when she isn't home and will be replaces with a more economical one.
On your loading problem you could put a water radiator on the HWS and a small circulation pump, in winter it would help the heating bill.
A couple of the plug and play GFI units could return excess power from the panels to the grid and run your meter back a bit, when connected across the panels the GFI draws only a few milliamps until the regulator shuts power to the batteries then the panels increase in voltage because of no load and it fires up the GFI 55 Volt ones in your case, I use 28 volt ones on my system.
You could do the same with your turbines feed them through a solar regulator for the same effect. Better than wasting all that excess power and gives you a bit up your sleeve from the grid when needed.
As you pointed out the gell cells are prone to damage by gas bubbles that is why they are critical on float voltage and equalization voltage using the low voltage approach solves these problems, and make short equalization charges if deemed necessary.
Another little trick is to get a proper certified high voltage GFI and have it installed then when the power need to be used up is feed into a rectifier off your inverter and use the voltage / power from that to drive the GFI, its internal MPPT circuits will take car of the loading and it can feed a few KW into the grid as overproduction dictates.
Your system is a bit of a feast and famine situation, perhaps you could put your well pump on a timer so it only comes on during chosen hours during the day.
I hate to waste power and am always looking for ways to get the best out of a system.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 04:11am 19 Jan 2015
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Edited by gww1 2015-01-20
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 05:00am 19 Jan 2015
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Hi bob
As you can see my pictures did not load. I actually still have the 2 350 watt plug and play grid tie inverters. My outback will export back to the grid and it was my origional plan to do so but I didn't want to put up with sighning a contract with the electric co. They would have payed me $2.00 a watt if I would have bought new equiptment and got inspected. I met a gut that got a 12000watt system installed and only has about $7000 in it and he didn't do any of the work. I never said I was smart, I just wanted to do it myself and didn't want to deal with them.
I actually did export for about 30 min just to see if it would work. I was selling about 4800 watts. My meter wheel will run backwards but for all I know they would charge me for what I made. I would love to do it during air conditioning weather as I can't run the ac but if I could just keep the battery full most of the time and use the watts while I made them I could actually do real well. I have the setup to do it but no agreement to do it.
I had the plug in play in use on about 700 watts worth of homemade panels when I lived in a different state. My factory closed down and I had to move for 4 years so I could get my retirement. I have about 300 watts of the homemade panels hooked strait to my batter and facing east to give me about 300 watts of early morning boost to help with charging. I could add a few more but I haven't made a mount to put them up. I had made about 2000 watts worth of homemade panels but only made about one third of them that are actually holding up to use.
I can't really change the water pump cause I don't have a storage tank and the pump kicks on everytime I flush the toilet. I can move curcuits back and forth pretty easy cause I have a manual transfer switch and the wires are still in the main panel and it only takes removing a wire nut and reconnecting the circuit to the origional breaker.
I had really thought about the hot water for heat but don't really heat the water to full very often. When I am on the ball I sometimes hook a 1500watt space heater and get up to two hours but have to watch close to do it cause I still have to hit the marks on getting the battery charged.
Thanks
gww
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 12:57pm 19 Jan 2015
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Hi Gww
The feed in is a point of contention here to, I have an installed unit that is now in negative earning due to fees and charges levied on it, that's why I am going back to self powering and the mains is a backup only and will run the airconditioning when required.
I am not worried by not getting paid for feed in but will still get credit KW HRS which I can use in the workshop and heating and cooling, it is more important to me to buck the system and do my own thing with power.
No more contracts for me either, as they are generally only a trap for young players, my first contract has now expired but still get some feed in pay 44 cents KWH but that in reality doesn't cover the government tax, and power company charges. I will be reconfigure the solar panels now the contract period has expired as the way they are set up is very lossey and I loose nearly 30 % of rated power due to series connection of the panels. with the older type meters if the wheel run back it subtracts from power total so you do not get paid for the power but it is a credit that is what mine did until they came and fitted one of these new fangle things digital meter to my power board, but even it when driven it reduces the total reading but also tells the solar input on a separate digital scale
I have 4 KW of solar cells I was going to make my own panels with but it would have cost as much as new panels now prices have come down so they are still in the box in the shed, things may change in the future so will leave them sit for the moment.
The electric space heater is a good idea you could make a voltage dependent switch to switch it on when your voltage reaches float and save you remembering to do it also could be used to heat water if excess power is available.
My HWS is a solar unit 300 ltr capacity and for 9 months of the year it boils on sunny days, but cools of in the winter a bit if we get to much overcast weather, it is the best investment I made on the initial solar installation as it saved 10 KW a day.
It has a 4 KW boost element in it for winter use but I found that feeding 24 volts into the element keeps the water warm enough to be useful in winter I can't remember the current it draws but I think it is around 300 watts, it is hooked up to the solar regulator so it comes on after float voltage is achieved. The regulator is a Chinese thing that has programmable voltages for float and equalize, every day it goes through its program charge to equalize for 15 minutes, then drop back to float so I set the equalize at 28 volts and the float at 27.5 volts I tried to have the float and equalize the same but that gave the regulator a nervous break down and went into error mode so I had to compromise a bit.
I am thinking of fitting a few panels on the back of the roof to get a bit more spread of charging as you have done, they are sitting in the shed gathering dust at the moment.
When you run out of other projects you could fit a pressure chamber to the water supply to stop the pump cutting in and out so much, I have a 40 ltr one and it made a difference to the pumps power usage. I will put in a gravity feed system this winter but maybe to cold over there for that for you.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 06:31pm 19 Jan 2015
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Hi bob
I got free glass and no frames and it is cheaper to buy. I was just board and dumb. I have no juntion boxes and just a diode on the pos lead. I have about 300 watts at a creek with two car batterys. Not use often but good for a radio and a couple leds. The batterys are going out and I am on my second cheap box store inverter.
Oztules has a great homebuilt solar panel thread on the forcefield forum.
Solar is to cheep to buy and I could use 2000 more watts without any other equiptment but to build racking and I can't make myself turn lose and buy em.
I got to work with what I got as I only make about 50% of what I am used to. It is worth it though to be retired.
I guess I'm gonna have to let this thread get back to batteries but this has been fun and I love good ideals. I don't always understand them as I have my own rate of learning but every once in a while the old lightbulb goes of and things get clear.
I read hugh piggots turbin plans again yesterday. I got 14kwhs out of my two turbines this whole month and I still think about doing a bigger one. Now that is dumb cause it would cost as much as the 2000 watts of solar I want and give almost nothing in return.
You were talking about all your projects. a guy has to do something.
I have enjoyed this and also thanks for you advice.
gwwEdited by gww1 2015-01-21
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 08:08pm 19 Jan 2015
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Hi Gww
It is nice to talk to a fellow feeling person as so many think I am mad playing around as I do with old stuff But I get more satisfaction resurrecting old stuff than buying new installed stuff. If it wasn't for Fleabay bargains I couldn't do what I do as the new stuff bought at retail costs a fortune to me.
I saw Oztules segment on the panels and it is very good but just to get the tempered glass sheets costs $45 for a 100 watt panel then add frame and plastic encapsulation stuff and you got no change from a $100 and I buy the panels for that in fleabay with warranty and no work to do.
I found a cheap way to make racking if you need some, I use 1"x 1" Gal RHS for the frame 21 foot long and use captive rivnuts to bolt the panels down 1/4 inch stainless bolts with a penny washer and a bit of rubber under the washer for security, the four cross pieces are welded to the two longitudinal pieces with a cross piece of 3/16 flat steel welded at a spacing to match the purlins with hole in each end to match the top of the corrugated iron roof, a rubber washer off the roof screw under the steel to prevent leaks 16 roofing screws 2 1/2 long and you couldn't pull it off the roof with a bulldozer.
It is a bugger being being on the pension I call it AIDS "acute income deficiency syndrome".
Turbines are fun to watch but not much power unless you are in a high wind area mine do about 3 KW a week but sometimes when we get a storm I see 50 or more amps for a while.
One of our members fillm is doing a 2.5 KW slower wind speed turbine which I am also saving for if the batteries go alright so i do not have any short term expenses.
Been nice chatting so keep in touch with the mad man from Australia.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344
Posted: 11:11pm 19 Jan 2015
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Note to Bob......
empty ya pm box it's full and I just tried to send you a pm
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 11:48pm 19 Jan 2015
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Tis doneFoolin Around
isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303
Posted: 09:24pm 20 Jan 2015
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Bob and all,
You are not mad We are just from a different time!
Take a look at the Fan forum http://www.afcaforum.com/ people collect fans from the first ones made right up til they are made in china!
There is something for every budget you can spend a few dollars or you can spend thousands.
There are guy's from down where you are post on that forum also!
AS you know Bub and I like most anything old and most of the time is better than what one might buy new today. it keeps the mind and body working also.
I have been watching but haven't chimed in.
Isaiah
URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL>
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 01:34am 21 Jan 2015
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Hi Charlie
My wife thinks I am a dinosaur she has, the lets buy it bug and her idea of budgeting is to get a bigger bank card.
She says "can't we sell all that junk and go for a holiday"
I like old stuff as it is generally better made than the electronic nightmares we get now that are designed to fail in five or so years, I have some old 32 volt generators that are nearly a hundred years old and still workable and a 415 volt 50 KVA generator open frame made in 1924 all I need now is a old slow revving diesel to power it up, so many projects so little time.
Now it has rained I must take a break from fooling around and mow the runway or it will turn into a jungle.
Mind is sort of OK but the body is about buggered.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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