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Forum Index : Windmills : Advert-Oz Wind 2kW vs Exmork / Huaya 2kW
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
4421 Not a good start to your first posts on a forum. If you have an issue with a forum member you should do it privately, or to me ( the admin ). You should especially be careful about calling any forum members products, be they a business or just a hobbiest selling a few items, "crap"! Not cool. I'm sure Phill will respond to your posts when he see's them, and I'm sure he would rather I just delete them but thats not how I like to run the forum. I'll only delete something if it appears to be getting out of control with no resolution. Please try to keep within the guidelines of the forum. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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fillm Guru  Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi 4421, I am not really sure exactly who you are talking about but firstly thank's for recommending me to him. With Regards to putting down the "OZ Wind F&P Dual Type Wind Turbines", I would think that you friend may have mistaken what I have recommended. There is no reason for me to put down something that I have designed and built, I do however give the person infomation on what I sell and its expected output. I usually also ask how much power do you need , if they are running fridges TV lights then of course my advice would be to say that a F&P Wind Turbine is not going to give you the power you want. I can also be very direct and honest in my replys, and I do get a lot of people with unrealistic expectations of wind and solar set ups and with what a F&P can output. I also give other options for them to consider, and as for a quote of $8000 then it would also include (Solar Panels,Solar Regulator, Batteies 400hhr,2kw latronics invereter, 2kW or 1kW wind turbine with Oz Wind Blades & 9m tower) that can then easily total $8000. if its the person I am thinking of , he said he wanted quality and to do it properly the first time so thats what I would of recommended and quoted. As for your description of these Chinese "Lucky Dragon" mills as "Crap" ,Yes I agree the genuine blades lack performance but the rest is constructed far better than anything else I have seen or I could make at that cost, with pressed steel / welded housings , big solid yaw bearings and Slip Rings rolled steel tail tube and steel pivoting tail. With the OZ Wind GOE222 Blade sets on they are strong built a winner with out standing output figures logged in the the side by side testing I have sown here . I do not know of any other person who goes to the lengths I do to give infomation about testing wind turbines like this in Australia. I am sorry you feel the way you do and if you friend or your self would like to contact me privately , I am sure we can work it out. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| 4421 Newbie  Joined: 17/09/2014 Location: AustraliaPosts: 3 |
Thanks Admin, I am not here to stir pot but I think there are some valid points and I am all for open disclosure. I know Phil is a regular here and appreciate that it is staying up for him to respond. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
4421 I have deleted you post and disabled your membership due to you breaking the terms and conditions of this forum. As I mentioned above and in PM's, you should have gone through correct channels to make a complaint about another forum members products or business practices. I am now also aware of the PM's and emails you have sent to another forum member, I'll leave it up to them if they want to take it any further. I do know the quote put forward by Phill to your friend was quite reasonable, I myself spent more than that building my own system with a smaller capacity. And like any quote, if you dont like it, try another supplier. A quote is not an obligation to buy. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| dwyer Guru Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 574 |
Good on you Gimzo 
Dwyer |
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| briggsy Newbie Joined: 06/09/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
Hi everyone, I have a similar chinese turbine which I've had in the air for about 3 years now(in South Gippsland Victoria) For those earlier posts asking about the pivoting tail I've posted some video on youtube which shows the tail pivoting in high wind. There's also a couple of shots of the controller and inverter to show output. http://youtu.be/wRKVbuPmc5w |
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| kitestrings Senior Member  Joined: 23/04/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 102 |
phillm, briggsy, Can you describe briefly how the furling on this works on this design. Does the rotation of the vane just push the machine out of the wind, or is it actuating something more - blade pitch maybe? I was assuming it is the former, but it is a bit hard to tell from the video. And, there is no offset IIRC? ~ks |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
KS, Briggsy, There is approx 120mm of blade off-set so it works on the same principal as a full tail furling. The tail fin is made from approx 1.6mm pressed sheet steel and pivots on an angled shaft, sealed bearings. So with the shaft being angled straight back at 20deg or 15deg ( angles example only ). Because the tail fin has a heavy the weighted side it will always hang in that position trying to keep the turbine into the wind. When the off-set force pushes the tail around against the wind, then the tail fin will pivot to the direction of the wind if the blade off-set force is greater. I actually now am quite a convert for this type of tail furling as it will always allow for cushioning from extreem side gusts and allow for the blades gyroscopic inertia in high wind. After watching a 3.8m set of blades hit the tower and destroy themselves because the tail was hard against a stop and blades spinning at high RPM, then with a strong side gust pushed the tail on the stop violently this was enough to cause flex in the blades and strike the tower. I have one 2kW down preparing it for the customer, here is a pic of the tail. 
I also have noticed from pictures on early Jacobs mills the tail is centered between 2 springs that give some cushioning for this type of wind force. Briggsy great video, if you ever get sick of seeing the turbine constantly hunting for wind and doing 360 degree turns in light to medium wind when it should be making power I can give you the solution that will give you 2x(in strong wind) to 100 times more power output (in light to med wind). The wind must have been gale force 15+ m/s to be getting 2kW from a standard set of blades at 3.2m dia. I have not logged over 2kW on the standard turbine in wind up to 60Klm where the OZ Wind modified is easily hitting 2.4kW at 40klm ~ 50klm 10 ~ 12m/s. Good to see you have a nice set up with the grid feed ... Well Done  PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| kitestrings Senior Member Joined: 23/04/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 102 |
Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense now. I like it. Simple, passive, effective. ~ks |
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wallablack Senior Member Joined: 10/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 164 |
Love your work mate. Interested in your HAWT setup you have "semi" advertised on eBay. I "dislike" HAWT somewhat but have just moved to a great wind area but am limited to my tower height (council) and surrounding trees etc. Would you be keen on selling me a HAWT? PM me a few ideas and cost... Cheers... Foolproof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools. |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Walla, Good to here from you again, hows the PL20s going with the Solar charging bulk/absorb cycle being controlled on the Load Terminal controlling a SSRs . Anyway, if you are interested in more info about the wind turbines, I am happy to send it but PM is not the carrier to use as I can not send pictures or files. I have sent you a PM with my contact details and you can also click on my linked signature . PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| briggsy Newbie Joined: 06/09/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
fillm, your blade/hub set up looks good. I'm already getting tired of patching the fibreglas/rebalancing the blades (despite the edge tape)on my original blades. FYI I can generally get about 2kw in 50 km winds. Sometimes it furls a lot depending on gusty vs clean wind, and have survived 95-100 km winds. When I first set up the system, tweaking the MMPT table on the inverter helped pull the voltage down to stop the controller shutting down(not good in high winds). You said your blades were okay in high winds, in WA I think. Do they affect the furling, and turbine prpotecting itself? I'll stick with my original blades for the time being but when they fall apart I'd be interested to replace them with GOE222. Another question someone might be able to answer. There's a little 12v computer fan on the front of the controller that has never come on. If anyone has the same, should it be on all the time, like a computer, or is it thermostat activated? (which would mean it's never been hot enough, hard to believe. briggsy |
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DaveP68 Senior Member Joined: 25/11/2014 Location: New ZealandPosts: 292 |
Hi Phill I came across this old post of yours while doing a search on "GOE222 blades". Was curious about their performance, as I had already ordered some from you last month and was looking froward to receiving my own set soon. Was watching your YouTube video titled "2kw Turbine Full Movie" 2kw Turbine Full Movie While watching the video at 3:40 I would like ask how you are able to extract around 1000 - 1200 W of power o/p in around 22 to 23 kph of wind with 3.2 m diameter GOE222 blades? I'm not disputing that you are getting 2.3 kW in 40~50 kph of wind that you have sited on the first page of this post. Using The Back Shed formula of Wind Power = Air Density / 2 * Area * Velocity³. This is what I get 1.225 / 2 x 3.14159 x 1.6² x 12³ = 8512 W then take off Turbine Efficiency say 35% along with Alternator ( or Generator ) Efficiency of say 80% I get 2.383 kW of power. So from 12 m/s (43.2 kph) wind speed with 3.2 m diameter blades 2.383 kW of power, so no problem so far.. Now lets try 6.5 m/s (23.4 kph) with the same calculation of 1.225 / 2 * 3.14159 * 1.6² x 6.5³ x 35% x 80% = 379 W that is well short of 1000 - 1200 W! As per what is on this website, how does wind speed affect the power? A great deal! If we almost halve our wind speed from 43.2 kph to say 23.4 kph is 6.3 times less power in the wind. I'll try again with 7.95 m/s (28.6 kph) which you have a screen shot of your wind turbine making 1704 W. With the same calculation 1.225 / 2 * 3.14159 * 1.6² x 7.95³ x 35% x 80% = 693 W that again is well short of 1704 W. There is just something not right about the numbers that your data logging equipment is displaying. I did notice in the YouTube video that your wind speed Anemometers are mounted on the mast very close to the bottom the blades (just below). You will get an air pressure drop behind the blades as the Anemometers will always be in that low pressure region regardless of wind direction. Refer to the following picture.  I also hope you are using the exact the same PMA on the other blades that you are making a comparison with, as if it is different that resulting output differences will be meaningless. Anyway Happy New Year to you. David There are realities if you do not accept, will lead to frustration because you will be spending time on wrong assumptions and the results cannot follow! The Dunning Kruger Effect :) |
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| flc1 Senior Member Joined: 20/11/2011 Location: New ZealandPosts: 242 |
Hi Phill,I watched your youtube vid aswell,and also noticed that at about 300 rpm one turbine is putting out about 100w and at the same rpm the other is putting out about 500w.that is a huge diffrence from two turbines that are sapposed to be identical. So as David has stated either your data collection is incorrect,or is it somthing else,like a lose connection on a phase ?.Or am I reading it wrong? Please explain, Fred |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Hi David and Fred ,,and happy new year to everyone.. Theory ---yeah,, not diputing the theorists out there , but I've been around a awhile now and done a few things?. I put a dual F&P with neos up driven by a geared ribbed timing belt through timing pulleys and yep, it screamed . At the time ,I nearly wet my pants ,seeing ,around 1 Kw --but at the time ,no one beleived me -the ol fart was pissed, dreamin, smokin ,you name it . But , there is a difference here--- I did it ,saw it and then shut my mouth after the negative , posts. Phill does excellant work , I know , I've had many a cup of tea at his place seeing his work ,1 st class.. I'n telling it as I know him , not sucking up to him , he dosen't need any of that bullsh*tte. Bruce Bushboy |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Data Logging accuracy will always be subject to component cost. The data logging we build tries to be as accurate as can be made and is meant as an over all performance measure. You might notice about a 3 - 6sec refresh rate and this is usually set by the wind speed calculation in program, so at times there can be a greater time gap between both loggers. A lot Can happen in that time with wind output gusts can go through in seconds and because the turbine is yawed or at a low rpm can also cause lag. One could probably go through and highlight the opposite argument to what yo are pointing out. If you guys have a better faster more accurate data logging dual systems then by all means send it over and I am happy to trial it. What the video shows and what I point to is Accumulated Power at the end of the day, this is what matters. On top of that I also highlight the way the std fiberglass blades react with constant yaw pitching / and hunting and the way the GOE set keep into the wind. I guarantee the GOEs will live up to their name and I have a long list of customers, that are in disbelief to how much more power ( accumulated ) they produce. Dave / Fred , I extended my offer way past the deadline with a price that is equivalent to the PVC blades some 6-7years back to give you both a chance at having a go with the GOE222s. I do not have the time or the want to be drawn into an ongoing debate on blade performance calculations at a given point taken on a read out on a logging screen. I have no problems in giving you a refund at this point. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| flc1 Senior Member Joined: 20/11/2011 Location: New ZealandPosts: 242 |
well said Phill. But a 500w diffrence at the bottom of the scale, thats a big error, so your over all watts per day reading means little with an error like that,you can't make refrence to that,,,, correct? at no point during that vid could I see the same watts for the same rpm from both those turbines, the one with the new blades was always higher watts per rpm,,,if that is a fault with your datta collection, then maybe you need to just go back to the tryed and proven needle meters to get more accurate power output for a comparison of the 2 turbines? Fred |
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| DaveP68 Senior Member Joined: 25/11/2014 Location: New ZealandPosts: 292 |
Hi Pihll Didn't mean to cause any upset here, as like I said was looking forward to getting those blades, if you missed it the first time. All I was pointing out is that you "might" have an instrumentation error at certain RPM/wind speeds etc. Not trying to dispute the overall power difference and top end performance. If both PMA's are identical and they should be. At say 300 RPM you get 500W on one unit then the other PMA when it gets to 300 RPM should give the same 500W reading. From observation on the YouTube video @ 8:11 first view of PMA GOE blades 293 RPM 546 W then at 8:33 for second PMA 286 RPM 124 W please explain this? Watching the refresh rate in the same video the readings of RPM/Power output in W are refreshing about every 1.4 seconds. I've done extensive testing a lathe recently up to 1155 RPM with 36 and 42 pole stators. The 36 pole stator with a black rotor produces 40% more power than any 60s, 80s & 100s stator regardless of how they are wired. So what I'm saying here testing 2 identical 36 pole copper stators wired the same each using ac black rotor cap, the power output of each will be the same (within say 1%). PMA RPM should closely correlate to power output in W, so when the 2 wind turbines that may have different blades reach the same RPM the power output should be the same. This is how I understand the PMA operation. Also the anemometer reading like you say could be leading or lagging by 3-6 seconds. The other 3-6 second refresh rate you refer to is the power plotting which I made no reference to. David There are realities if you do not accept, will lead to frustration because you will be spending time on wrong assumptions and the results cannot follow! The Dunning Kruger Effect :) |
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| flc1 Senior Member Joined: 20/11/2011 Location: New ZealandPosts: 242 |
Phill, I have no problem with your blades at all. Im just making an honest observation, we all have to take some criticrism at some stage on things that we put in the public domain. |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Bruce, Thanks for the input, and yea you are right I dont need this sh!t, but Fred & Dave,. As I stated the loggers are the best that can be done with out having the budget of CSIRO or any given University, in my back pocket. Believe me I put a fair bit back into R&D. Now the data loggers not only are std in the OZ Wind range of turbines 1 - 2.5kw but can be wireless and can be moved as easily as taking a USB stick, this allows other power controls to be easily be switched at differing areas away from the main battery ... like pool pump , hot water Air/con... etc Wind speed does affects data refresh rate, the rpm will also be a calculation on an AC frequency / a constant. Rpm will rise and fall in multiples of 10 / 15, I can not remember exactly . Sometimes you get a bounce number that charts off the scale which is seen a couple of times if you look for it. If you think it is better to have analog gauges with a vid camera and try to show performance, that's your opinion. As far as the 500W you talk of where is that in the time line exactly? This might explain It has been so long since I have looked at the Vid, all of that setup is long gone and out of my head. Back then all the power from the 2 x 2kw turbines + 2.5kw of solar is being fed into a small 225Amp/hr 48V Lead Acid battery bank, then 2 x 1200W Latronics PVE Grid Inverters pull power out above 52.3V. Because of the ability of the turbines to have surges above 4kW combined there is a 25 x 3000 Farad Boost Cap bank in parallel that can absorb 8kW's for 30 -40 sec in a 53 - 59 Voltage rise, this allows for the grid inverters time to react and capture power surges. If you had any question, it should be asking why is one Power vs Out-put live on-screen display showing all the data dots accumulated and grouped to one side of the Graph power curve. It shows higher Rpm at lower output where the OZ Wind GOE 2kW has a concentrated line going up out of the set range of 2kw. Some one with a keen eye and understands how and what happens with a wind turbine when a diversion control is switched in & out, also would know that when out-put is directly coupled to the dump load would realize that rpm / volts then become Wild AC and in reality it will eventually try to stop and stall the blades and if the blades can not power through the shaft load that is dictated by the resistor size. All this is happening when the other turbine with the GOE blades is direct connected to the batteries but with Dump Control . If I had the GOE set swapped then you would most likely see a runaway rpm line because they would easily over power the resistor load at the wind speed on that day.. The system on high wind days at that time had no other option, the Solar Mppt and PWM turbine controller is set below the the dump load for the OZ Wind Huaya. And yes it could be a bit misleading if not understood and I do my best to give the best and honest reliable data and overview of performance. I don't think I need a lesson in how turbine power is calculated or what happens when anemometers are placed close to blades. There is also a 3rd Davis Weather station anemometer that is mounted lower on one tower. The anemometers are calibrated to it and virtually have exactly daily high and are always very close to the Davis. These days I have a large Lithium bank and soaking a 10kw surge is easily done. I have a 3 phase 5kW grid tie with 8.5kw of panels and the house the workshop is constantly supplied from the off - Grid system with 5kW of solar and 2 towers and a 3rd going in soon specifically for testing large Var-pitch blade sets. So i can say that OZ wind is totally carbon neutral / negative. 99% All my packing is second hand cardboard Fred - I can guarantee I have had more flack than anyone else here over the years,and if it is me being wrong then I take that on the chin and do my best to correct it. I also dont know what you call an honest observation, its confusing when in the previous line you do not have a problem with the blades but do not even have them yet. Is that from watching a short vid because so far you have made your comment on youtube as well as here, with the explanation disclaimer that if in the public arena I should take criticism. But it seems you are criticizing firstly with no foundation which is guilty before trail. I have not had one customers response to be any thing under jaw dropping amazement and sometimes followed by reducing blade Dia to even have had a customer that has 2 blade sets for his 1kW, 1 at 2.8m and the other at 2mtrs.. Quite a few times it meets with disaster because the customers do not heed my warnings on mounting design strength which always means twice the blade sales. I will leave it there ... PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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