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Forum Index : Windmills : phil m re oem turbines and batterys
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Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Tom, Breath.......Hmmmm... Slow down and list what you have in total for all 3 mills, some photos would help. Firstly i understood you said 3 mills and 1 controller and 1 dumpload, now you quote 1 set for each mill. Slow down mate! (or as the Jamaicans would say "Ezy Mon" )and let us know what hardware you actually have and then we can better advise what direction to take. I understand you want answers to stuff, but no one can give the information you want without the details to work with. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Tom, You will not be able to use PVE2500 as the voltage is to high for your mills @96v . There fore you are limited to the 1200 only , and as pete has mentioned you need to slow down a bit as from what we are picking up is a general lack of knowledge and experience which will cost you a lot of money if you do not listen and read , then take a bit of time to digest before the barrage of questions. What Pete and myself have also said is with batts you will need some form of voltage control to protect your investment from being boiled to oblivion if the grid is off. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
One problem with windmills and batteries with a GTI is, the GTI will draw power from the batteries and put it to the grid, but it dont care if there is wind present to recharge the batteries or not, so the GTI will flatten the batteries if there is less wind energy than the GTI uses. Batteries dont like sitting around flat they fail quickly, so they need to be fully recharged within a few days, but what happens is they get part charged to the point the GTI has enough voltage to switch on, and it flattens the batteries again before they get a chance to fully recharge. This is where Phill has made a suggestion for a inverter that works in around the top 10% window of full battery charge, meaning the batteries will only ever be discharged to 90% of their capacity, and not leaving them sit around for days or weeks totally flat. This means you need an inverter that can be set to switch on at say 58 volts and switch off at say 54 volts. (settings subject to debate) Now you dont want a whooping inverter that will instantly drop the battery voltage that it switches off again, or one to small it cant handle the total power from the mills and cause the mills to shutdown in good wind conditions. So its a balance between battery capacity (battery size) total mill output capability and inverter size, this is where it gets a little tricky, and even more so when we dont really know what your mills actually are. Forget about what is labeled on the mills as Kw, as this will change with what output voltage that is used (say 12, 24, or 48 volts) and the RPM the mill needs to reach to produce the current for that voltage. Windmills are not a black and white device that produce XXX amount of power at 2 m/s windspeed or whatever. The faster they spin the greater the voltage they produce, when coupled to a battery, the battery clamps the voltage to equal battery voltage, so then the faster the mill spins the greater the amps it produces now at battery voltage. The Kw rating is calculated from volts x amps = watts of energy produced, now a Kw is 1000 amps, and 1 Kw/h is 1000 amps for 1 hour. As Phill has suggested a realistic value to work with might be 500 watts per mill or 0.5Kw/h, for the average wind day, you will simply not get full output of the mills all day and every day. If i could get 0.5 Kw/h output average here from a mill i would be over the moon, im lucky to get 0.5kw per day total, on an average day. If you consider a 1200w inverter as starter and then find it wont handle the power you can generate, then you can always add a second 1200w inverter to the system, but if you use a 2400w inverter (or bigger) and its too big and drops the battery voltage too fast you simply have no where to go with changing this problem. These are some of the problems we need to work through, should you choose to take the path of using batteries. To be honest you would have been far better off building a tin shed in your horse paddock and putting solar on the roof, in the long run it would have worked out cheaper and far less hassles then trying to build a wind farm. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
My next question is what was the mill controllers programmed to suit, 12, 24 or 48 volt system, as the design of the controller allowed the factory to set a voltage range suitable to the application required. Do you have any idea what the controllers have been programmed to suit? Its no use asking Cindy as the controllers may have been interchanged by the seller so we really dont know what they are programmed for. The up side is, due to the fact i designed them, i do have the codes to preset the voltage range and also the rpm limits, but if you should require custom adjustments to the program then that is not a option (other than replacing the micro), as it would require giving you the source code to the micro controller, which OEM dont even have. Pete Sometimes it just works |
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| tomqu7 Senior Member  Joined: 09/11/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 168 |
i persume the voltage in the resistor is set for the turbine because the manual shows u how to connect it up phil m said I have to use batteries re design of oem turbines so I need a 1.2 kv latronics to not flatten the batteries u said 1.2 latronics has the rite voltage a larger say pve 2.5 kw would flatten bateries so if I have 6 kw coming in ???? from 3 x 2 kw max power 3 kw cut in speed 2 metre/sec- pretty low ? mismatch going out?????????? say 6 kw coming in may need 1.2 x 6 on cindys site the calculator can be used to calculate kw for their existing 2 kw max power 2.2kw so i guess mine would do more at max power 3 kw I guess I need a number of 48 volt 300 amp batteries do i the mean wind speed in my area is 15.2 km/ hr have to convert to metres per second to use in calculator on cindys site get about 2600 kw in the formula u just use a weibill of 2 as this is most common I do not know what efficiency of turbine is i have looked at the resistor and it has an earth plug and 2 other holes is green tin with air slots and rectangular have one for each mill so if the 3 mills are 2 kw max 3 kw then i could get 6 kw going inot batterries at least is this where the heat is u mentioned so I wold need a lot of batterries to cut down heat do u think on u tube there are videos on wiring batteries so u do ot put whole incoming load on on part of the battery |
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| tomqu7 Senior Member Joined: 09/11/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 168 |
the controllers are chinese with controller written on it on u tube man in snow has one like mine i think the controller is in the manual manual just shows u how to put the parts together 15.2 km /hr =4.23 metres per second so this is above cut in speed at 2.2 metres / sec |
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| tomqu7 Senior Member Joined: 09/11/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 168 |
i believe the controller converts the 3 phase power of the tubine to single phase |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Ok!! for the last time i designed and developed the controller you have there, so one would think i do know what i am talking about. The one in the video of in the snow is about 5 years earlier model than the one you have. The video is of a early version of the 500w mill OEM made with a tower included, not of the mills you have currently. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
You need to read and understand , the PVE2500 is 96V , that ,means 96V is required to turn it on so a 48V battery bank wont even tickle it and I don't remember saying you HAVE to use batteries , I gave you 2 options . |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Pete, I can see your proof reader had quit before you finished typing this message  Klaus |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
So ok i mixed up Aunty Amps with Whacky Watts. The above quote should read The Kw rating is calculated from volts x amps = watts of energy produced, now a Kw is 1000 watts, and 1 Kw/h is 1000 watts for 1 hour. Tinker, glade you said "proof reader", spelt with a "R". Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Sometimes Tinker I really think we just need to sit back and think " do I really need to" or is this just nitt pickin that does not add to the topic .....when something is that basicly obvious as a typo ...... but lets add an "LOL" on the end and its all OK . PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
No exactly, the controller converts the 3 phase AC to DC power. The basics of how the controller works is in 3 ways. It converts AC mill power to DC and feeds the batteries direct with DC. The monitoring circuit reads the RPM of the mill and the voltage of the battery, and should either RPM or battery voltage exceed the factory set limits then the controller will switch on the dump load resistor to load and slow the mill. Then there is the logging circuit that monitors RPM, voltage, amps, and windspeed, the data for logging is sent via serial 4800 baud to the DB9 connector, which is compatable with any computer serial com port or a USB to serial converter cable. (USB to serial cable most likely supplied) The logging is just an option you can choose to use or ignore. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| tomqu7 Senior Member Joined: 09/11/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 168 |
thank u so much so i get a battery banks of how many batteries dry cell 300 amps and put the controller and resisitor on each turbine that came in the box and connect the batteries to one latronics pve 1200 is that it cut in speed 2 m/sec my mean wind is 4.23 m/sec so 6 kw of turbines connected to battteries what is best size dc cable to run from turbines to batteries some u tube videos use welding wire I want a fat cable so I do not lose any current |
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| tomqu7 Senior Member Joined: 09/11/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 168 |
so u cannot rely on manual stating cut in speed 2.2 m/sec is that rite do I have to buy another controller on cindys site describes dynamic braking system and dump load would I have that in my turbines so battery back of dry cell 30 amp how many batteries attach resistor and controller as in manual and attach a pve 1.2 grid connect inverter from batterries to grid I have 6 kw of turbines mean wind speed from willy weather.com.au for post code 3814 on cidys site is a calculator where u put in mean wind speed is rotor efficiency 39 % and diam of rotor2.6 m if blades 1.3m |
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| tomqu7 Senior Member Joined: 09/11/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 168 |
I don't remember saying you HAVE to use batteries----- ? didn't u say u cannot connect a oem turbine to grid but to use batteries |
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| tomqu7 Senior Member Joined: 09/11/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 168 |
the othe rproblem with trying to connect 6 kw of turbine max power 9 kw is sthat u only have a choice of sma inverters whcih philm said will not work the otehr choice is multiple power one inverters to amke 9 kw in australia they do not have the 12 kw inverter I was trying to buy one overseas originally so 48 volt 300 amp wetcell ( or whatever batteries) on the large commercial wind farms to the go to grid directly |
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| tomqu7 Senior Member Joined: 09/11/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 168 |
opps the large commercial wind farms do they connect to grid so cannot get a grid connect inverter to connect 6 kw of turbine to the grid unless buy several small power ones do the power one inverters work or same problem as sma |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Not totally correct, its your lack of understanding that is incorrect. Cutin speed simply means the speed the mill needs to reach before some power will start to trickle to the batteries, it most certainly dont mean at 2m/s you will produce full output. So at 4m/s you might be lucky to produce a couple of hundred watts but never 2kw. The controller has nothing to do with cutin speed, it never has and never will effect the cutin speed regardless what controller you use. Pete Sometimes it just works |
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