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Forum Index : Windmills : Furling on a F and P , Have I got it righ
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| Taswind Newbie  Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
Windmill went up today  , used my trusty old crane ( some may know it as an excavator, LOL) to lift the mast up .
All went well , was blowing around the usual 5 ms as I was putting it up , made up a brake switch for it , which was good while putting it up , didnt have to worry about the blades spinning . Used truck Ratchets on the lower mounts while putting the mast up , have found this to be easy when working by yourself , you can quickly put some tension on and adjust it easy to get it plumb. Have got all the top stays on , have to make the lower ones up still , but the truck ratchets will hold her for a couple of days 
As soon as I got it all safe and connected up , turned the brake off , guess what the wind is blowing now - .05 ms . Have had a couple of gusts at 1.6 ms and she will start to spin , but that is it for today  .
While on the subject of brakes , does the F and P like being stopped in strong wind? Here is a pic of her on her way up 
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Nice work, and nice looking view too. Well, it doesn't seam to mind. It wont damage it, but it wont slow it down either 
One thing the F&P is famous for is its ability to keep going even when shorted out. It's to do with the iron core and a bunch of other stuff I wont go into here, but to put it simply, shorting it out in high winds wont slow it down one little bit. But good news is the F&P can handle a dead short with little problem, the stator can dissipate the heat and there is no long term damage. Shorting it out will only work BEFORE it spins up to speed. So if you think there is a storm coming, or strong winds, then short it out while its running slow and it will grind to a halt, and usually stay stalled even in strong winds, depending on how much torque your blades have and how the stator is configured. Recently I've installed a pull cable on the tail of my F&P windmill, so I can pull a cable down at ground level and the tail is pulled into full furl. Finding its the best way to control a run away F&P. If you look at Phills blog you can see a similar manual furl system. http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/blog.asp?blog=1 Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
And I feel like a dick, just looked back over your build and you already have a cable pull setup on your furl. 
Nice work. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
And I feel like a dick
Oh! good lord! that's a little to much information. 
How we can twist words out of context, i dont think Glenn meant it as i have implied, in actual fact i have known Glenn for a long time and can assure you i have twisted his words. Its just my warped Aussie sense of humor. 
TASWIND, Well i did warn you!!! All up a nice result, and cant wait to see some posted results from the fruits of your labour. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
This could easy derail the thread, anyway....... Nice work Tas ... The wind will come and it looks like you will be addicted , wind mills might not produce as much power as a few solar panels but there's not much fun in putting up a solar panel and watchin it produce power. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
Well, it doesn't seam to mind. It wont damage it, but it wont slow it down either G,day Glenn LOL , Thats ok then , at least I can turn it off before a storm or before I go away etc . Not a bad view ,thanks , is a good little valley for funneling the wind , just not today , is so calm now am going to go fishing tomorrow , that should bring the wind on .
G,day Pete You did warn me , it is uncanny , old Murphy has got me twice at the moment , put my solar hwc up last Thursday and we had two great days for it , put it up to 70 deg , but it has been cloudy everyday now with a few sunny breaks , not enough to heat it up , cant get an electrician to wire it up to boost for a couple weeks
Sitting at 45 deg now , still warm enough for a shower though .
See how we go with results , had a digital amp meter connected to it at the last house , but it wont work now ,might be Murphy again, so have run the negitive side to my solar shunt , hope this will give me some readings , not sure if it will work ?? |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
That is true Phill , is addictive , can sit there and watch it spin for hours |
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Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Perhaps you have not heard of O'Shannessy's law. O'Shannessy reckons Murphy is an optimist. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
OK maybe its just a Queensland expression. Its the same as "I feel like an idiot". The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
Means the same thing down here Glenn  ,
Got some wind tonight , is blowing between 3 to 4.5 ms , seems she doesn't start putting into the batteries until 3.5 to 4 ms , am getting between 1 to 5 amps at the moment at 24.6 volts . Had a stronger gust and seen 7.5 on the amp gauge , but that has been the best so far , at least it is working .
Well people , how do those numbers look , is that what I should be looking at for it to start producing . What sort of wind speed do these things like going to ? And what sort of speed should I be looking at for it to start furling ? so I know when it is all going wrong ,lol . She is cruising along nice at the moment , no vibrations etc . I had her running into 12 volt batteries at the last house , and she used to start producing power into them at about 3 ms , so it takes a bit more wind to get her putting out to 24 volt now , an extra ms or so by the looks . |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
A little bit of an update on the mill , the wind has not been playing fair since I put it up . Have not had any real wind to speak of , plenty of days at 2 to 3ms , where she is spinning but not putting any thing into the batteries , except for a couple gusts that will put a few amps out for a few seconds . But yesterday had a bit stronger winds , but not from the best direction for the mill , a few trees in the way so was a bit swirly , around 5ms , am still not happy with the tail , was producing some power but has gone back to not tracking straight into the wind , and was being caught side on to the wind when the stronger gusts came through and not catching them . . Will have to add the extra tail piece back on , so am going to make a whole new tail out of alum with a bigger tail vane and take the steel pipe tail off . Hopefully this will make her perform a bit better . |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
To work properly the generator needs clear air. You should be 10 metres above any trees to achieve this, no matter how you modify it the wind will still swirl and cause problems. I used to have my generator on a 24M tower and still could not stop turbulence effecting it. This was due to the wind coming up a steep slope over trees. Many times it would start making power for a 20 - 30 seconds and then turn quite often doing a complete 360. When it blew from the other direction it worked perfectly. The reason a lot of people go for vertical generators is to deal with turbulence as they work with wind from any direction. If you are way up a tower and feel clear (non turbulent) wind it is very different to feeling the wind on the ground. It is just constant, no buffeting or change in any way. That is stuff that makes you generator work properly. Not only due to being able to face the wind correctly but also due to wind hitting the blades at the correct angle. Once it is turbulent it comes at the blades from many different directions. The blades are designed to work at a very specific angle. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
G,day Madness Will always be a compromise here , being on the side of a hill , have clear (ish) wind coming up the valley , where it seems to come from most of the time but from behind me , coming back down the hill there will always be tree problems and the turbulent winds that go with it unfortunately . But the mill is not tracking as well as it was with the bigger tail , even from the most favourable direction , so changing it will improve it . The mast does need to be higher also ( currently 9 metres)and this will come with time , still waiting to find some more cheap pipe , as this windmill is a real budget build , being built from scrap and tip shop etc purchases
The windmill itself owes me $25 for a bearing and some high tensile bolts . The mast owes me $0 for the pipe , $75 for the new turnbuckles (need another set for the lower guys),crimps ,shackles etc , $10 for enough 6mm guy wire. To do this tower and another one , great tip shop find and about $100 in concrete for the footings , so all up pretty cheap fun .
Will keep tinkering with it and see if I can get it performing more reliable over time |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
That is cheap, our tip shop has gone down hill since the scrap metal is done by a different mob they insist on getting as much metal as they can. Hence very little get to the tip shop. With my previous generator I had considered doing away with the tail and using a fan mounted at 90 degrees to the fan and using a gear box to turn the generator into the wind. This would not be compatible with your feathering, I had a Dunlite generator that had a governor system that changed the blade pitch. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
We still see a fair amount of steel at the tip shops ,guess they can get more for it there than for scrap , steel scrap is worthless really , but you never see aluminium or stainless . Well , was cleaning out my workshop today and thinking about the tail on the mill , thought if I am going to pull it back down I wouldnt mind trying to make some bigger blades for it and put on at the same time . So took a load of rubbish to the tip and had a wander around the tip shop while I was there , as I do , and there hiding in the corner was a 2m long piece of plastic pipe , is black ABS I think , 320mm outside diameter , 275mm inside , so about 22mm thick , probably been there the last 10 times I have been but it jumped out at me today got it for $15 , BARGAIN , well I think so anyway ,lol
Being 22mm thick I am thinking I should be able to get a bit of aero foil shape into that , and replace the yacht mast blades that I have now , that have no shape to them . So my next question is what shape and size ? Anybody put me in the right direction to some info , pics ,or who has done it . |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
To be honest with you using the ABS tube for blades is not your best option, what you will find once you cut the tube to a profile and with some time in the sun it will change shape and effect the balance of the mill. Ok it will work, but it will f$#@& up in time and perhaps cause damage to the mill. A mill is only as good as the blades, so my suggestion would be bite the bullet and buy some GOE222 alley blades off Phill and work forward from there. I think Phill is around the $40-50.00 per meter for blade, and in the end it will work out to be cheap for a good profile that works only too well. I understand your view of going "Cheap" with the build of the mill, but what you will find after a lot of wasted effort and picking plastic pieces up from the surrounding area after some time in the sun and a good blow, is the alley blades would have been a cheaper option. What i dont like about the GEO222 profile is it works too well and in strong winds you cant stop the buggers. The F&P can handle that where other alternators can not, so its a perfect match for a F&P mill to GEO222 blade profile. That is just my view from a long time with playing with wind energy and offering the best advice i can to you, feel free to try the ABS and you might get some good results, but also expect it to bite you in the ass. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Jarbar Senior Member  Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
Or you can buy some off Anthony (Jarbar) who with Glenn (Gizmo) helped design the original PVC blade that others ran off with,and then passed the Aluminum version onto Phil.I still have some PVC blades left at $32.00/meter. Anthony. "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
Thanks for the offers to buy blades , and I will probably do this if I end up building a better mill , but for this one am going the DIY route , keeping my mind and body active , and keeping me out of the pub
Anyway had a play with the abs blades , tried to get the GOE222 profile into them as everyone keeps saying this is the gun profile
Took about half an hour to rough out the shape , but as downwind said it is just to soft and bendy , so scrapped that idea . 
Next bright idea , am making some timber ones , I have a nice pile of shavings starting , and have got three blades roughed out , have to see if I can borrow a decent plane and sander now to go any further  |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Nice work Taswind. Just remember, timber blades dont need to be perfect. You can spend hours trying to get 3 blades that are identical, but in the end it makes very little difference. So long as they have a similar weight so you can balance the turbine, slight differences in the profile and finish will have no real effect on the turbines performance. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Taswind, I admire your will to "have a go! " at the end of the day a set of bought blades is cheap when you add up the man hours to make a set. But i agree where is the fun and understanding in buying blades compared to making a set. 200 points for attempt, and 50 points for profile thus far, although better than i can do free hand. In the last year i designed a gig to take a 6" standard makita circular saw to carve a set of blades with. Its a long story and will hopefully be a full article on the forum one day when i finally get around to writing it up. I have a set of western red cedar blades on my mill at present from the gig results, although they work well, i call them the whistlers, due to the tip noise they make (rather mild but i can do better) Its only something we learn from having a go and not being quite perfect, and its a point i will try to share with you , on the profile you have. for starters i would try to carve a taper tip blade, the GOE222 profile is great as a mass produced length blade, but it simply works too well, to the point you cant stop the buggers in strong winds. A better profile will give the same torque but better control as the blade will reach a stall point in rpm to power, so hence control. If you intend to carve your own blades then you may as well adjust the design to be better suited. There is a hell of a lot to understand in a simple blade design, but it can be basic if you have some understanding. I just seen Glenns post and in many ways i agree, the profile dont need to be perfect to work, even cricket bats will work if the wind is good enough. A lesson i learnt is to view the air flow over the blade as splitting the air on the leading edge and joining it back together on the trailing edge, its the whole function of the blade, now if you get this wrong as i did, what happens is the next blade coming into the dirty air has turbulent air to pass through. (think F1 aerodynamic problems) This give a blade whistle noise at the tip and over all effects the blade performance , and from what i see in the photos you are also doing the same mistake as i did with the profile of the top side (concave) 
Please excuse my lack of drawing skills to try to show the problem in air flow across the blade profile. Also feel free to carry on with the current profile as it will work, just not as good as it can be. A belt sander is a better tool for the next stage than planers etc. With a course 60 grit belt you will tear it down to shape easy from there and at a controllable rate. Balance will be your biggest problem and its the number 1 thing you will need to get right, so weigh the blades every so often to see which blade needs material removed to adjust the weight, up to 50 grams difference can be adjusted later, but a few 100 grams will cause problems. Then im sure with the wealth of knowledge of members on this forum, you and i are not the only idiots who bother to have a go at blade building and share our information, so you should get many posts of points of view on this.........waiting? Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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