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Forum Index : Windmills : Intro from newbie and controller question
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BobMann Senior Member  Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
Glenn My brother from down under made the statment of the 200 Watts and that the 60 stators were junk. I have shown it is not that, it has just not been used in the right way. I guss some Yanky had to work on it!! If you wish after my Boston MA Home show Jan 21-22 I will rerun the test with a stock 60 stator and hub to show how much more power can be pulled from it using a controller of this kind. By the way the Smart controller is made to do just that Made to charge batterys too at a low cost with out cuting up stators and throughing a way power. I am all about keeping the cost down for the DIY. I think Steves VID will do a better way of showing the Smart Controller and how it works. Steves VID Bob Mann |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Bob, have you achieved 1000 watts from a 60 series stator on a windmill? Yes, Moose could add a $400 smart controller, build a Neo magnet hub for another $200, and this will probably double his power output, but he is still limited by the turbine. That turbine is designed for axial flux alternators, which have a different power curve to the F&P smartdrives. Our trials over the last couple of years have shown the GEO222 profile is a good match for the F&P's. It would be cheaper for him to find a couple of 80/100 series stators, add some caps, and a set of bigger blades and get more power. Even just using a 80 or 100 series wired to suit would give over 300 watts with Mooses turbine, and thats a cheaper option again. What we want to do is give Moose some advise that has a proven record, so he can buuild a better windmill. I have no doubt the work you are doing Bob will give better power figures from a F&P based windmill, but its not ready yet, and no help to Moose. Once you have a working windmill that has been tested and sorted, then that would help Moose. I'm loosing my cool with this. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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yahoo2 Guru  Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
I can tell you that having a solar (in series) controller with an inbuilt diversion control system like your plasmatronic has, is a real winner!. Having one controller making all the charging decisions will save you a lot of headaches, separate controllers tend to fight against each other. There used to be a reference manual that explained how to set up the diversion load resistor and the software,it would be worth having a read of this, if you can find one. It doesn't need to be restricted to the wind turbine,once it is set up and operating any power supply that pumps out 60 volts and less than 30 amps will be controlled by the diversion, just connect the power across the battery bank and stand back!. much cheaper than a fancy 48 volt battery charger. cheers Yahoo I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| BobMann Senior Member Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
He asked these things and I gave what I have tested to work. I am sorry if you do not get what we have build and tested to work. Sorry if a stepped on you toe,s Bob Mann |
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Rastus Guru Joined: 29/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 301 |
Hi to all, Is there a link that can inform me of the number of coil windings per pole,needed to rewind a 60's into an 80's unit.Is the only option to doing this manual,considering 80's seem to be harder to stumble onto.I'm intending to use 60's star 80's delta duals,but I'm getting the sense that dual 80's are the way to go!Cheers Rastus see Rastus graduate advise generously |
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herbnz Senior Member Joined: 18/02/2007 Location: New ZealandPosts: 258 |
Hi Rastus I always rewind its easy to remove old windings just cut start tie of and walk down driveway (do have to start right phase and end but not hard to work out ) rewind Use 1mm wire need to convert connections used here to turns per pole but nowdays I have a base and use my own knowledge. a previous post of mine below. Senior Member Senior Member Avatar Joined: 18 February 2007 Location: New Zealand Online Status: Online Posts: 246 Posted: 23 October 2009 at 9:05am | IP Logged Quote herbnz Hi To throw aspanner in the works, I never reconnect its much quicker easier to rewire. This, to me means I am not interested in codes that show connection methods, rather I convert to turns / phase or in fact when lazy turns / pole. ie a common unit 100sp is 7 pairs in series or to me 44 turns *2 = 88 turns /phase or 6 turns /pole. A code that showed turns /phase would suit me better but then I am a loner on this I suspect Herb There are other times I have commented on this but most consider not on. The most turns I use per pole is 12 I dont worry about scrambling the windings just get as tight as possible. Herb |
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moose4621 Newbie  Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
I really appreciate all the input and advice here and thank you all for joining in. I am learning heaps and with most replies here, there is a faint sound of a penny dropping. 
 But I spent so much time on them. By far the most time consuming task. And,......and,........and,.........BUGGER!
In their defense though, they are dead quiet blades, except when grossly oversped. So the GEO222 blades with constant cord and progressive angle of attack, (no twist), is the way to go on a F&P? Who would have thunk it? Thanks Fillm. Well, to be honest, I started this project as an experiment to see how effective a wind turbine would be in this location. I decided on the F&P because it was cheap and easy and I had hoped that on completion it would make a worthwhile contribution to the batteries. Once proven, I would embark on a 1.5Kw+ mill that would make up a shortfall I have in the solar panels since buying larger capacity batteries. I wish I had read words to this effect five years ago. Thanks Gizmo, well worded. And your dead right, I will not contemplate spending $600 on a washing machine mill. Here's another of those penny dropping moments. Thanks Yahoo, and appreciate your advice. I was confusing Dump load controller and diversion controller as two different things but if I have finally got it right, they both divert the excess current into a dump load. In which case I am familiar with this and was originally asking about a controller that would short the three phase from the mill to stop it from overcharging. I have since reasoned that I can use the Load terminal on my PL60 to activate a relay/contactor to do the job. I would not be able to use PWM mode though. The PL60 is a great little charge controller and has served me well for six or seven years so far. Does a great job of generator control too! That's interesting Herb. I guess thats an option. Where do you guys source the enamelled copper from? I can only assume it's bloody expensive. Many thanks to all. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
there is a difference between a series dump load and diversion control but a lot of people don't make the distinction. With a traditional dump load the turbine is switched out of the battery circuit and the energy is transferred to a large resistor, a diversion control just manages the battery voltage by progressively switching on the resistor load, the turbine is still connected to the battery and running. That is why the pl-60 can run PWM on both solar and diversion at the same time.... and why you could throw the stop switch on the turbine and supply power from any other source you choose.  even some extra solar panels!
It is to long since I have worked on a pl-60, my memory is a bit hazy on what additional outputs you have, if any. shorting the phases is pretty brutal, I wince when I do it once by hand on a gusty day, I would have nightmares about it switching continuously all day. yahoo I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Thanks for the clarification Yahoo. I get the impression that you believe I should stick with convention and divert to a resistor.? He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
No moose I don't have any bias one way or the other. I have used a contactor switching out at 14.7 volts and back in at 12.1 volts but the solenoid used a lot of power itself, a latching relay would have been better but this was before internet and I didn't have the skills to build it. I am just saying you have most of the bits needed for a working mill on your main system already, you can have a go and learn while it is running, most first timers haven't got this luxury. Sorry, I slipped an extra bit in my last post about solar panels while you weren't looking. yahoo I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
My biggest moment like this was when I compared my power use with a friends, He had 2.2 Kw a day to run his water pump, I had 35 watts (I use a large overhead tank for water pressure and fill it every two months) We fitted a huge pressure accumulator to his pump and his pumps power use dropped to 100 watts a day. I was gobsmacked  It was raining pennys that day!I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
In standard form, without the expansion board, I have the "G" terminal which in my case is configured to remote start the genset, and the "Load" terminal which I have now configured for load dumping as per these instructions. Without the expansion board, you only have two external controls available. It's a pity the input from the wind generator won't be monitored by the PL and used in it's SOC estimation as well as total in/out, etc. But, as you say, it's a lot better than starting from scratch. No wind today. 
Took advantage of the down time and wired the F&P to the main system today. Although not getting much out of it, was being wasted on spare batteries. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
PL Reference I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Got that one. Doesn't cover wind/dump load very well. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Another penny drops! If I connect the + DC from the mill to the shunt connected to the PL via the PLS2 remote adapter, it will record ext charge. 
I just saw that the genset powered charger is connected here too. Does this sound right? Doing this would give the pl60 the ability to log external charging from the wind generator, (and genset) and even display ext amps as well. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Moose , You are correct , but when you connect the wind with a PLS2 & Shunt it adds to the total input so you can not see wind or other charging seperate . For the wind you could add a seperate amp meter or better still a logging system like the piclog or similar . I have a PL60/PLS2 in my system but it is hardly utilized more than a dump load controll now as I also have a MPPT solar charger. Plasmatronics have two downloads for setting up wind / solar , LINK Wind Sheet 1 and LINK Wind Sheet 2 , there is also the G-set or L-Set terminals that can be used to activate a solid state relay from memory but its been a while since I have played around with all the options , but none the less they are a top class voltage reg and fully programable on #4 as a battery management system rather than at 1 voltage the dump/diversion turns on. The PL20 is a good one as well as it can switch 20A which is basicly 1kW in 48V and it comes at a better price , basicly 2 PL20s for the price of a 60 . Be warned about the PL40 as it can only switch 5A and is more a solar charger only . PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Thanks fillm. If you go to the CHRG---CINT-CEXT menu it displays external charge current greater than the load current. In other words, the shunt doesn't display a charge from an external source until the input exceeds the output. The input from the solar is CINT and therefore not displayed. Makes sense but is of little use for monitoring the wind turbine. Can do great things with these terminals including switching water pumps, etc. As I said in another post, without the expansion board you can only do two things. In my case it's G-set generator control, and L-set Load control for wind. With the expansion board, you can do six functions. I had all this down pat a few years ago but I haven't fiddled with the PL60 for ages and now I have to forget something, (like how I rewired the stator) to make room for a new memory.  He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Has anyone tried geo222 blades with taper and helix? He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| Jarbar Senior Member Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
Hi moose4621, in the original development of the extruded geo222 PVC blades a couple of customers bought sections of blades which as Glenn and I suggested may be theoretically set to different pitch angles along the length of the blade.As for tapering this was not possible using the extrusion process. I have taken a a length of blade and cut it into 32mm slices that were then orientated at incremental angle/pitch changes from end to end.The advantage of the PVC was they could be glued into position but needed a spar through the full blade length for support. Another potential added advantage was the turbucle effect that would cause a more laminar airflow across the blades surface.Which theoretically would enhance their power.Unfortunately another unfinished experiment. Anthony. "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Hi Jarbar. I was hoping someone has carved a set. I am well aware that extruded blades cannot be twisted or tapered and as a result, can not set the length of the blade to a specific pitch or optimize it's lift according to it's radius. Therefore the blade has a different pitch at each station along the length of the blade. As I am sure you are aware, the pitch of a blade is relevant to it's radius from centre of rotation and therefore the angle of incidence must change along the blade to maintain the same pitch. I was interested to know if anyone had carved a set of blades to the GEO222 airfoil with taper and helix, or correct pitch along it's length and what the results were. While I can understand why the extruded blades start easily with such a course pitch at the tip and therefore lower angle of attack, I can also understand why these blades don't spin up as well as a others because of the relatively fine pitch and possible negative angle of attack near the root. I'm certainly not knocking the extruded blades as I haven't even seen any in the flesh and certainly never tried them but they are obviously a compromise between performance and manufacturing process. Just fishing for more info. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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