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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : (MM) Viva the MM
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djuqa Guru  Joined: 23/11/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 447 |
The main problem with the SM1 was the assembly method Partial or total hand assembly is too expensive to produce. Duinomite benefits from automated SMD Pick-n-Place assembly As will the ????mite from DJUQA pty. ltd. The same as CPM and MSDOS had common origins but seperated into 2 directions DM and MM will diverge into 2 directions but complement each other. Same as the TRS-80 and System-80 had discrete followings. or IBM AT and clones diverged. BTW when was last time any one saw a REAL IBM PC (not a Lenovo) for sale? The clones mutated and evolved into something bigger, better, more usable. Yet everyone still calls them IBM PC compatibles, Yet in most areas they aren't. But no-one cares as they are BETTER. Sound familiar? VK4MU MicroController Units |
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| Gadget Regular Member  Joined: 22/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 70 |
Since when was MMBasic not open source? Geoff has 2.7A source on his sight and 2.7B firmware was a test version Has this changed? Terry |
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| rhamer Senior Member  Joined: 06/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 174 |
Try asking for it. Try asking about upcoming plans and features. Try offering input into its features and direction. Despite the claim MM is not open source, it's Geoffs project and he alone decides what will and won't happen with it. Regards Rohan Rohan Hamer HAMFIELD Software & Hardware Solutions Makers of the Maximite Expander. http://www.hamfield.com.au |
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| djuqa Guru Joined: 23/11/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 447 |
That statement is contradictory If it is still open source then no ONE PERSON can totally govern it's future direction. At any stage anyone can fork the project and go in their own direction. Exactly what is happening with all the MULTIPLE versions of 2.7A that KSD has done for the Duinomite. BTW just how many versions of 2.7a can there be before a version number change. At least use a different version number like 2.7a.1 or 2.71a VK4MU MicroController Units |
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| rhamer Senior Member Joined: 06/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 174 |
Ok I missed a comma that changed the meaning. Corrected above. Rohan Rohan Hamer HAMFIELD Software & Hardware Solutions Makers of the Maximite Expander. http://www.hamfield.com.au |
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elproducts Senior Member Joined: 19/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 282 |
It's still incorrect. Maximite is open source. You can download the construction pack and the 2.7 source and build a working Maximite. You can also modify the design and modify the code just as was done with DM. You can't get more open than that. But Geoff has every right to do what he wants with his design. Olimex also has every right to change their DM design any way that they choose. For example, the Arduino creators are going through changes to a new 1.0 IDE/compiler (which may make some older code incompatible without changes) and some hardware changes all directed by the Arduino creators (and a few selected helpers), it's still considered open source. People can suggest new ideas, like changing the spacing on the digital headers to 0.1" between headers but it doesn't mean the Arduino creators have to make that change, its still their design and it's still open source. Any individual can take the Arduino files and modify it for 0.1" spacing any time they want. Maximite is really no different. It's still open source. Olimex said it best: "if you are business and you want to use MM you can do this anytime as it's open source" www.elproducts.com |
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| Olimex Senior Member Joined: 02/10/2011 Location: BulgariaPosts: 226 |
I guess Rohan mean that MM latest source is still not public for some reason and there is no clear statement from Geoff why he do not release his sources anymore, sorry Elproducts but this can't be called open source :) I can name it "Geoff source" So from side point of view MM may be considered as open source up to version 2.7a with one single developer MM is up to Geoff's decission if it will be open or closed source in any moment, with all latest sources available and two active firmware developers now Ken and Gerard DM is much more in the open source spirit, we welcome anyone who can contribute to join DM firmware development, Geoff do not want anyone to touch his sources or hardware without his personal approvement, do you see the difference Elproducts? Gerard had to make the 2.7b bug fixes in DM i.e. to dublicate Geoff work, certanly these were not big changes at all but they show that MM is not open source project after 2.7a revision. If you go with MM you are at one single man will and decissions. And I do no envy anyone who decide to go this way and invest in MM hardware. I guess what Pete is concerned most is that DM recently have had some improvement in the MM-BASIC with the new commands like SETUP, HELP, SLEEP, iButton, VT100 screen editor etc. etc. but Geoff do not take any action to update these in MM and MM is still at revision 2.7a at his web page, this is why Pete is sad that MM development looks like kind of depreciated and fading, while DM firmware developers prove that listen to MM/DM community and implement what they asking for like the ibutton functionality. I've been asked several times why Olimex do not produce pure MM compatible boards, the answer is that I put so much money in DM to bring the cost low that I will not break even in the next 6-8 months, why should I put more money in MM project which depend on the will and decission of one single man, who changes his positions on monthly basis? At the beginning of the project we have been completely opened to Geoff, we show him the schematic etc he was in the loop with all our development decissions and he clearly said - I do not want to support this board nor to be associated with this new board in any means. Later we run the board in production and he was angry we forgot to put his name on the silkscreen, he start seeing us as competition and stopped updating his page with the sources thinking that this way he is placing additional obstacles on our path. Geoff is who placed border between MM and DM, if he didn't do this both MM and DM would be moving together much far forward. If he didn't put this page for Duinomite (complete with half truths) and supported DM in his firmware we would probably go and offer both DM and MM hardware and I would put these additional money just for the respect of what Geoff did with MM, but he made everything possible to push us away. |
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CircuitGizmos Guru Joined: 08/09/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 1425 |
This constant MM bashing isn't helping anyone. Micromites and Maximites! - Beginning Maximite |
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| Pr0f Newbie  Joined: 09/12/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10 |
I liked the look of the Maximite - but for my application I needed more than 2 com ports, and I really don't understand why the maximite used bit banged com's - the strength of the pic micro's has always been the hardware these things come equipped with - to not make use of it is in my opinion misguided. I also liked the lipo battery functionality offered by the duino - I started with a Pinguinno - which was similarly reviled by the arduinno die hards - I kind of feel sorry for the Olimex guys - they make clever hardware which can really form the basis of some good projects. I think new buyers should really look at what they need, and then make the decision as to which platform they use - both had good and bad points. |
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vasi Guru Joined: 23/03/2007 Location: RomaniaPosts: 1697 |
Exactly! As is stated on Geoff pages, the project started as an educational example of what you can do with C and Pic32. It was a simple project, without addressing every peripheral of the microcontroller (it was not the case). The problems started when Geoff tried to make a standard form his first (successful) trial (opening the windows for forks)... I still believe that is not late for a MM version made it right (using the microcontroller for the microcontroller world). Vasi Hobbit name: Togo Toadfoot of Frogmorton Elvish name: Mablung Miriel Beyound Arduino Lang |
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| djuqa Guru Joined: 23/11/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 447 |
Exactly What is confusing some people is there is 2 factors The Maximite Hardware and the MMBASIC Environment . The original Maximite hardware was never designed to be the only version of PIC32 Microcontroller possible. Duinomite is not the only possible a;ternative. Even Geoff has recognised that with the UWB32 version of the firmware. The software/firmware NEEDS to be flexible enough to accommodate additions and alternative hardware environments. What really needs to happen is for a Compatible and legal clone of the firmware to be forked to cater for the different clones and still work on the original hardware. Exactly what happened with the TRS-DOS clones in the 1980's. We couldn't expect Tandy Corp to update the official TRS-DOS to suit all the nice extra features that 3rd party suppliers were providing . VK4MU MicroController Units |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
I write software for a living, and I think I understand why Geoff isn't releasing the source code for the current version. It could be he is working on a bigger update with more features and changes. Remember when the 2.7 update was first released, but Geoff would not release the source code as it was going to be part of a yet to be published Silicon Chip magazine article. Once the magazine came out, the source code was available. Chances, are the same thing is happening, Geoff is up to something. I have written a business intranet application over the last five years, used by several clients to run their entire business. Its called JAQ. JAQ is pretty big now, about 450 pages. Each business has different needs, and often request a new feature or change in the way JAQ does a particular task. Any change I make is global, so all businesses will see the change. Therefore I need to make sure a change in the software for one business wont be detrimental to another. This involves making a change, then testing the change with other businesses to see if they like/dislike the change, and adjust accordingly. This can mean there are more than one version of JAQ out there. And sometimes this means I cant update one businesses copy of JAQ until I have finished and tested the changes. So I understand why sometimes it not possible to release one particular version of software if there is a newer version in the production line. Also, if Geoff does release the code for the current version, and the Duinomite team put their time and effort into porting it to the Duinomite, and then Geoff releases a newer version a week later, he's going to cope a lot of flak. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| CircuitGizmos Guru Joined: 08/09/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 1425 |
Glenn: I do hardware/software/firmware. There is a lot of overhead to releasing code. Personally I think infrequent but solid releases are best. I agree with you. From the other perspective I would imagine that if I were making my own version of DM code (perhaps modified for a different microcontroller) I would find very frequent updates to be a burden. On another thread here at The Backshed was mention of making a modification of the DM code specifically to suit one person and just mailing it around. Would be frustrating to try to keep that from being out of control. Micromites and Maximites! - Beginning Maximite |
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pcaffalldavis Senior Member Joined: 17/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 187 |
I guess what Pete is concerned most is that DM recently have had some
improvement in the MM-BASIC with the new commands like SETUP, HELP, SLEEP, iButton, VT100 screen editor etc. etc. but Geoff do not take any action to update these in MM and MM is still at revision 2.7a at his web page, this is why Pete is sad that MM development looks like kind of depreciated and fading, while DM firmware developers prove that listen to MM/DM community and implement what they asking for like the ibutton functionality. I have no such concerns and can't imagine how anyone got that idea from what I posted. I am not sad about MM development. Quite the opposite. I'm very pleased with what the MM can do. My only concern was that a fully assembled MM was not commercially available six months after the rollout. But as of today that is no longer true. I just bought five of the new 100% MM compatible CGMMSTICK1's from CircuitGizmos and couldn't be happier. And I'll be getting more later. Viva la MM! Other versions, other products, other branches are all fine by me. Just don't take away my MaxiMite! Pete in Hyder We're all here 'cause we're not all there. |
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Keith @ Senior Member Joined: 19/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 167 |
Guys Correct me if I'm wrong ... I don't think anyone is providing anything other then HEX code for MMBasic, DMBasic, KSDBasic et al at this point in time. It's a bit like a Mexican Standoff of some sort! And from Wiki ... "A Mexican standoff is most precisely a confrontation between three opponents, facing each other. The tactics for such a confrontation are substantially different than for a duel with only two opponents, where the first to shoot has the advantage. In a confrontation with three mutually hostile participants, the first to shoot is at a tactical disadvantage. If opponent A shoots opponent B, then while so occupied, opponent C can shoot A, thus winning the conflict. since it is the second opponent to shoot that has the advantage, no one wants to go first. " In financial circles, the Mexican Standoff is typically used to connote a situation where one side wants something, like a concession of some sort, and is offering nothing of value, and the other side sees no value in agreeing to any changes so refuses to negotiate. Although both sides can benefit from the change, neither side can agree to a compensation value for agreeing to the change, and nothing is accomplished." Regards Keith The more we know, the more we know we don't know ! |
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donmck Guru Joined: 09/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1313 |
Mexican standoff? Sounds like a scene from Inglorious Bastards that Brad Pitt was involved in. What a great movie, if you can handle the concocted WWII history. 
I'll unlock the Mexican standoff by promising the DuinoMite source code to any interested party at any time. The reason I haven't added it to my pages is that I can't use it, and I imagine most people can't. Sure Olimex has an older copy, and when the new version is released, this will be updated. DuinoMite Source has been flying between our software developers, and below is a quick rundown on the topics covered: So if you are seriously interested in doing any development work on the DuinoMite, send me an email, and I'll get you the code. Does that solve the Mexican standoff? Cheers Don... =============================================== -2011-12-27 Hi All. I have updated the source as I fixed a few errors during compilation (I have setup a compile environment for the Duinomite). The zip file contains a hex file in the "Output" directory - Duinomite.hex I have attached a zip file containing the 2.7b source code (and hex file). I have merged my changes into the code that Ken sent me on the 21st, as well as placed a lot of #ifdef statements to allow compilation for both the Duinomite as well as the Maximite. I have also made quite a few changes to external.c to try and get the support for the various pin options on the Duinomite working (fingers crossed!). I have compiled the code here (I have now set up a Duinomite programming environment) and my brief testing has it working for me. Please test and let me know how it goes. I have spent quite a long time reviewing the pin connections and have set up the pin usage to maximise the hardware we have. As such, the GPIO table will need a bit of updating to match the configuration in the code. I have attached a spreadsheet that lists the pins as I believe they are now set up. The user manual will also need to be updated to match the table. Regards Gerard (vk3cg/vk3grs) =============================================== -2011-12-28 Hi All. Please find attached the current version of the source and the associated hex file (in the Output directory - Duinomite.hex). Also my version of the GPIO table that matches the code. I have updated the handling of Pin 11 as discussed with Mick and Don. The user manual will need to be updated to match the table. The size of the Flash drive has been set to 60 * 4096 bytes (ie 60 pages for a total of 245760 bytes). This has been done to make room for the extra code that is in the Duinomite port (including the setup, RTC, sleep, full screen editor etc). I believe the editor is still in the beta stage - I had to make a few changes to get it to compile cleanly. Please test and report any issues. If it appears to work OK (and Ken gives his OK) then Don can post it as the latest beta. Regards Gerard (vk3cg/vk3grs) =============================================== -2011-12-29 Working on merging Gerard's last code and mine back to one will have working full screen editor and VT100 terminal program and some other additions just need some modems and bbs's again ken =============================================== https://www.dontronics.com |
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| Keith @ Senior Member Joined: 19/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 167 |
Hey Don That's quick shooting pardner ...and no guns! I wasn't after the code with the Mexican Standoff quip. I really wanted to draw a cartoon to depict the situation but I had to put together a 1000 words instead! I'm no cartoonist 
I suspect as you do that the vast majority don't use the C code. However, I do have a look at the code using MPLab trying to understand parts of it in a rudimentary way to further my rudimentary C programming skills. thanks for your help ... you really do try hard to please regards Keith The more we know, the more we know we don't know ! |
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bigmik Guru Joined: 20/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2914 |
Happy New Year to all parties 
Regards, Mick PS. I was tempted to add Names but then I wanted it to be friendly and not upset anybody. Mik Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<< |
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| donmck Guru Joined: 09/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1313 |
DuinoMite V2.7B Source Code-2011-12-31.zip is the current source file that is being passed between our software developers. It certainly isn't finished, and I have listed the development phases in the text file. It may pay to wait a week or two so that all features are added correctly, But for people that want access to it, here it is. http://www.duinomite.com/files/index.php?dir=Hardware%2FDont ronics%2FOlimex%2FDownload+Files%2F Cheers Don... https://www.dontronics.com |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
Hi Guy's, Just had a look at the source file and I gotta say WOW the source does look great. If the developers don't mind I'll have to totally scan the whole code then modify them into sketchs for MPIDE so I can get the DM running on the diligent board I will hopefully get soon. Now the comp rules do state all work must be one's own but to hell with that, if I can get the routines done in the Arduino IDE to work via sketch's then I'm sure the E-mega DM when it comes out will have a head start. As stated this is open source and hopefully next year we will see a E-mega board so with other guys in the same comp lets get together and get our own Dev team going for the diligent board. Regards Bryan |
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