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Hydro John Newbie Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 35
Posted: 12:27am 04 Nov 2011
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Hey Don,
The reason I put the notches in the buckets was because that is the way Don Harris fabricates his "Harris Pelton Wheel" and that is the way EcoInnovation fabrics their pelton wheel. Both Harris and Eco use a single nozzle, although they do use more than one nozzle when the conditions dictate. I have wondered why not use a single bucket with a single stream of water, but I have not thought of using a twin nozzle with a twin bucket. Sounds reasonable to me. OK, if I fabricate a twin nozzle, do you think that I should refabricate the buckets without the notch? It seems to me that the notch would allow some of the water to escape the buckets without releasing all it's eneregy. As you suggested, I have some plans to be able to tweak the direction of flow to get the most energy from the water. By the way, it's raining right now, which is a good thing for my little creek (Bill's Branch). I really do appreciate your help.
Hydro John
Hydro John Newbie Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 35
Posted: 12:49am 04 Nov 2011
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Hell Bob,
Your last post has really got my interest up. Are you saying that with my head (20')and flow (50 gpm)that I should be able to get 200 watts out of my stock 60 F&P? What kind of test and with what meter are you talking about? I have been using a multimeter to test the voltage, but I do not have a clamp on amp meter. I guess that should be next on my list. If you have any additional suggestions, please let me know. By the way, I have 2 other F&P 60 PMMs. All came from Whirlpool Cabrio washing machines and the controlers appear to be in good condition. Could these be put to any good use? Thanks again so much.Hydro John
Don B Senior Member Joined: 27/09/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 190
Posted: 07:17am 04 Nov 2011
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Hi John,
Coming back to Dave F's comments, with the head and flow rate that you have available, you should be able to get 140 Watts or so from your turbine if you improve it (and are sure of your head and flow data).
For head, you should be able to measure the pressure in your delivery pipe just before the turbine. The pressure that you measure here with the turbine running will be the static head less the losses in your piping, which, as Dave says, should be fairly low, but will increase as the flow rate increases. I don't have an accurate imperial pressure/head conversion to hand, but I seem to recall that 15 psi is roughly equivalent to 30 feet head. There are plenty of conversion tables available on the net.
For flow, you just need to catch the water delivered in something of known volume, and time it. Probably you have already done this.
As for load on your turbine, the old incandescent type globes are an easy and simple way to change the load. They don't care whether they are fed with DC or AC and, if it is AC, they don't care what the frequency is. If the voltage that you measure across a globe is close to its rated voltage, then the wattage will also be close to its rated wattage. Note though, that if the voltage is only, say, half of the globe's rated voltage, then the watts will only be about one quarter of its rating, because the current will also be only about half.
Oh yes, and lamps don't like operating above their rated voltage. They will, but not for long.
I would also add that only measuring voltage with no load is absolutely meaningless in terms of what power the turbine is capable of putting out.
Regarding the buckets, I would change nothing until you are satisfied that you have squeezed the last poofteenth of power improvement out of your turbine by increasing the head and optimizing the nozzles. Then, any improvement that you do make will be solely due to the change in bucket shape.
I don't wish to rain on your parade, but you will probably have to increase your head if you wish to get much more than Dave's calculated 140 watts. Note that Dave did use a 50% efficiency factor, and you may be able to do better than this with a Pelton wheel, but only if everything is close to optimum. And I also repeat my statement that, unless you can get at least 300 watts out of your set up, you would waste your money with a grid tie inverter.
Concerning the F&P controllers, they are a very neat variable speed drive that changes single phase power into DC, then back again into variable frequency variable voltage AC power. Unfortunately, this is just the reverse of what you would like to do, and they are no help at all.
Regards
Don B
Hydro John Newbie Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 35
Posted: 12:35am 05 Nov 2011
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Thanks again everyone for all the good info. I'll do some more research and fine tuning and then get back. Hopefully, I'll have some improvements to report.
Thanks againHydro John
Hydro John Newbie Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 35
Posted: 04:29am 03 Dec 2011
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Hello All,
I have been very busy trying to digest all the info you have given me and also been doing quite a bit of research. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.
[quote=Dave]7m * 4L/s * 9.81m/s squared * 50% = 140 Watts.[/quote]I was concerned that the numbers that Dave used may be a bit over estimated, so I decided to determine the exact flow, head and penstock length. The true numbers are:
Flow at minimum flow: 50 gpm (same as original).
I took 5 measurments that gave an average of 51.64 gal/min =3.26 liter/sec.
Note: The flow increases with a rain to well over 500 gal/min but returns to the 50gpm over a period of about 1 week.
Head: I used a surveyors level rod and hand level to determine the head and was disappointed to find that I only have 15.7'=4.78m head. One encouraging note was that during my site measurements, I discovered that the potential for increased head on the upstream end is 13.2' to give a total head of about 28.9'. But for now, I am going to concentrate on the 15.7' head and 50gpm until I can improve my system to get every watt possible.
Summary: Using Dave's formula this would give 4.78m*3.26L/s*9.81m/s squared =152.8 watts at 100%.
Next I began working on improving the efficiency of my nozzles. I tried to fabricate a twin nozzle as Don suggested, but without much success. I was able to make a nozzle using different size funnels and coke bottles that did quite well.
Then I worked out a way to adjust the direction of the nozzle spray.
I used the lid from the washing machine for a door to the pelton wheel.
New nozzles with 21mm opening(coke bottle)
After tweaking the new nozzles I was able to get 110 to 120 watts (much better than the previous 39 watts). This was very encouraging to say the least. Next I needed to get the power to my house. I looked around my scrap piles and found some salvaged 12 part phone line (about 600') that had been discarded by the phone company. Used 4 lines for each phase and ran it to my basement. I hooked up my light bulbs and had lights powered by my creek inside my house. I have a voltage loss of about 1.5 to 2 volts. I am now working on the intake structure to stop leaves from clogging up the nozzles. This will also increase the head by a couple feet. Once that is done I'll have to figure out what to do with the wild AC that is now inside my house. I know that I have lots more learning to do and I hope you will be willing to continue your help and suggestions. Any response to this post will be appreciated.
I have ordered a clamp on DC/AC amp meter and a digital tachometer, so that I can get more accurate measurements (as Bob suggested).
Thanks again to All
John
Hydro John
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 05:58am 03 Dec 2011
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I once used a pelton wheel to drive a pump, the nozzel I used was a cheap plastic nozzel made for wash down hoses. A irrigation shop sold them here in Australia, they are used buy farmers etc for hosing out muck. These where available in a wide range of sizes.
The worked very well to give a nice clean jet, also I found that there is a sweet spot for the nozzel. If you can set it up with a movable mount to find the best spot it is well worth while.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329
Posted: 07:23am 03 Dec 2011
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Hydro John
I'm just shootin' from the hip on this, with no actual experience, but it occurs to me even though you have only a little less than a 5-foot head, do you think there may be any advantage to making the downhill run as straight and swift as possible, then use the momentum gained (kinetic energy) to turn a larger-diameter wheel and extract the power using a transmission?
Being a retired plumber, I know water doesn't always behave like one might think it should. Like I said, this is merely an idea that came to mind.
. . . . . MacNothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 07:28am 03 Dec 2011
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The head is 4.7 Metre's, If you can get the extra head I would do that as you will quite a bit more power. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Hydro John Newbie Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 35
Posted: 03:15pm 03 Dec 2011
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Hello Friends,
[quote=Madness]I'm just shootin' from the hip on this, with no actual experience, but it occurs to me even though you have only a little less than a 5-foot head, do you think there may be any advantage to making the downhill run as straight and swift as possible, then use the momentum gained (kinetic energy) to turn a larger-diameter wheel and extract the power using a transmission?[/quote]
I'm not sure that my small stream (Amos Creek) could handle something mechanical like that. I could be wrong! Have been many times. My penstock (500' remeasured) is straight (no elbows or abrupt turns) with no high or low spots to create air locks. Don't think I have much room for improvement here without increasing the size of the pipe, but couldn't justify the cost.
I have another creek that is much larger (500+ gpm). Something like you suggested might work on that stream, but I'll leave that for a future project. I want to learn on the small stream (get my feet wet so to speak) before I attempt a larger project. Thanks for the input.
[quote=Madness]I once used a pelton wheel to drive a pump, the nozzel I used was a cheap plastic nozzel made for wash down hoses. A irrigation shop sold them here in Australia, they are used buy farmers etc for hosing out muck. These where available in a wide range of sizes.
The worked very well to give a nice clean jet, also I found that there is a sweet spot for the nozzel. If you can set it up with a movable mount to find the best spot it is well worth while.[/quote]
Thanks for the tip on the nozzles.
A tip from Don led me to fabricate a way to adjust the nozzle direction, and you are right, it does make a significant difference.[quote=Don]Oh yes, and some facility to tweak the aim of the nozzles would help to optimise the performance. I imagine that this could be quite critical.[/quote]
Look closely at the picture, in my previous post, that shows the washing machine lid used as a door to the pelton wheel. It shows my attempt to make an adjustable mount. Maybe you have a suggestion for improvement? I welcome any suggestions and thanks for your comments.
JohnHydro John
Hydro John Newbie Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 35
Posted: 03:27pm 03 Dec 2011
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Hello Friends,
Please forgive me for the error in my last post. The first paragraph was a quote from MacGyver and not Madness! SORRYHydro John
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 09:00pm 03 Dec 2011
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Another type of turbine that works well at lower heads such as yours is a Banki, they look like a cylindrical fan. I saw a very old mother earth article where someone built there own using pipe cutting about 1/3 off along the length of each section, these where then welded between 2 discs. The pipes don't need to be straight, as long as they are sufficient diameter you will get the maximum possible pressure at your nozzle.
The simplest, easiest and most reliable generator for your situation would be to get a suitable sized induction motor, they can be turned into generators by simply adding capacitors across the terminals. If you google induction generator you will find plenty of information on how to do it. The output voltage will be similar to the motors rated voltage ie 220V. This is easily transmitted to your house where you can then use a step down transformer and a rectifier to get DC or possibly if you can find a safe way connect directly to your grid supply (this would need to disconnect if the grid supply should stop for safety reasons)
I would love to have your water supply and potential for power generation. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Hydro John Newbie Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 35
Posted: 10:17pm 04 Dec 2011
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[Quote=Madness]Another type of turbine that works well at lower heads such as yours is a Banki, they look like a cylindrical fan. I saw a very old mother earth article where someone built there own using pipe cutting about 1/3 off along the length of each section, these where then welded between 2 discs. The pipes don't need to be straight, as long as they are sufficient diameter you will get the maximum possible pressure at your nozzle.
The simplest, easiest and most reliable generator for your situation would be to get a suitable sized induction motor, they can be turned into generators by simply adding capacitors across the terminals. If you google induction generator you will find plenty of information on how to do it. The output voltage will be similar to the motors rated voltage ie 220V. This is easily transmitted to your house where you can then use a step down transformer and a rectifier to get DC or possibly if you can find a safe way connect directly to your grid supply (this would need to disconnect if the grid supply should stop for safety reasons)
Right now, I have invested a considerable amount of time and effort into my F&P project, not to mention some $s. I do appreciate your suggestions to try a different system, but I think that I will see this through before I try something new. I want to get my new intake structure up and running and measure the results. It is evident that you, along with others that have responded to my post, have considerable knowledge about RE systems and I hope you will be willing to share your knowledge with me as I progress with my project. I am going to need much help with converting the wild AC into usable AC power. With the small amount of power that I have available , I am leaning toward using it to power a refrigerator and freezer in the case of a power outage. I am not ready to begin this process yet. I am still trying to maximize the power output by tweaking spray direction, trying different size and type nozzles, and placing shims behind the rotor. Rotor speed is something else that I want play with, but not done anything yet. I am somewhat encouraged in that I have been able to get as much as 70%+ effeciency with some of the tests I have made. Thanks again for the input.
JohnHydro John
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 10:53pm 04 Dec 2011
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John,
If the total potential energy in the water stream is 153 watts, and you are measuring around 115 watts electrical output, that is 75% overall efficiency.
That sounds extremely good, and I think you would be well into the point of diminishing returns with what you have already achieved.
Next step might be some large batteries, so that you can draw much more power than 115 watts over short periods, while keeping within the 115 watt average.Cheers, Tony.
Hydro John Newbie Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 35
Posted: 01:31am 05 Dec 2011
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Hello Friends,
[quote=Warpspeed]If the total potential energy in the water stream is 153 watts, and you are measuring around 115 watts electrical output, that is 75% overall efficiency.
That sounds extremely good, and I think you would be well into the point of diminishing returns with what you have already achieved.
Next step might be some large batteries, so that you can draw much more power than 115 watts over short periods, while keeping within the 115 watt average.[/quote]
Thanks for the encouraging words.
I was using the formula: Watts=Gravity*Flow*Head
If this is an accurate formula then the efficiency of 75% is correct. As I said in my previous post, I have more testing to do once my new intake structure is up and running. This should increase my head by at least 1 meter and hopefully more watts. Don't know exactly how much yet. Thanks again for the input.
JohnHydro John
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 02:28am 05 Dec 2011
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John,
I have just calculated 150.75 watts potential power given 3.26 L/sec and 4.78 M head.
Edited by Warpspeed 2011-12-06Cheers, Tony.
GJK2010 Newbie Joined: 07/10/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 17
Posted: 03:11am 05 Dec 2011
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Hydrojohn,
Hey I dont know if you figured out your problems.... i do have a website that may help you. http://mwands.com/ He's from missouri he also sells DC water heating elements. He has some videos that may help you most are on wind power just gotta think alittle outa the box.Where about do ya live, im in Wisconsin.I hope this info provide you some answers!!
take care
GJK2010
Hydro John Newbie Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 35
Posted: 10:04pm 06 Dec 2011
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Hello Friends,
[quote=Warpspeed]I have just calculated 150.75 watts potential power given 3.26 L/sec and 4.78 M head. [/quote]
Seeing that your results are somewhat different than mine, what formula did you use?
[quote=GJK2010]Hey I dont know if you figured out your problems.... i do have a website that may help you. http://mwands.com/ He's from missouri he also sells DC water heating elements. He has some videos that may help you most are on wind power just gotta think alittle outa the box.Where about do ya live, im in Wisconsin.I hope this info provide you some answers!! [/quote]
No, I am a long way from figuring out my problems, still testing. Thanks for the website tip. Looks like he has some interesting products.
I'm from Caldwell County, NC.
Hydro John
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 11:07pm 06 Dec 2011
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Being an old fart, I worked it out using imperial units plus a bit of rounding....
Basically:
Horsepower = Pounds Feet per minute divided by 33,000
Convert 3.26 Litres into pounds of water ( x 2.205) = 7.1883 Lbs per second
Convert 4.78 Metres to feet ( x 3.2808) = 15.6822 feet
7.1883 x 15.6822 = 112.728 Lbs Ft per second = 6763.68 Lbs Ft per minute
And divide that by 33,000 to get horsepower = 0.20496 Hp
Convert Hp to Kw ( x 0.7457)
0.20496 x 0.7457 = 0.1528 Kw
That is the power required to raise 3.26 L of water 4.78 M every second.
Or the potential power contained in the same volume of water falling the same distance each second.
No doubt a lot more neatly and efficiently worked out directly in metric units, but I just don't think that way myself.
Cheers, Tony.
Hydro John Newbie Joined: 31/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 35
Posted: 11:30pm 06 Dec 2011
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Hey Tony,
Looks like the formulas are the same, just some rounding. By the way, I'm an older old Fart. Semi retired civil engineer and I know very little about electronics. I have worked in civil construction my whole life, mostly highway and dam construction. I just recently began work on my Micro Hyro project and I am really having a good time. Keeps me out of my wife's hair.
John
Hydro John
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 11:55pm 06 Dec 2011
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Great stuff John,
I am a retired electronics engineer.
Living in a snobby Melbourne suburb, there is zero scope for hydro or wind power here, and I can see little incentive for solar thermal or solar electric either, as natural gas is so very cheap here.
I would love to be able to do the type of project you are doing, but that will never happen. Cheers, Tony.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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