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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329
Posted: 06:08pm 01 Sep 2010
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[Quote=VAWT]Am I doing the math right?
The cyphers are spot on, it's the logic driving them that needs some attention! Unless you live at the South Pole or somewhere else where the wind howls 24 hours a day, your wind genny won't generate anything certain hours of the day. You'll have to figure your power estimates from actual wind data for your area and then there are losses (read that MANY loses) from theoretical gains.
If such a rig were available at Home Depot for even 4 times what you stated, we'd all have one in our backyard.
I hate to rant too, but like I said away back there a few posts, this forum is basically a DIY platform. Most of us build stuff in our little garage shops and working or not, we share what we've accomplished and move on from there. If you'll take a look at my profile and read almost any of my several posts, you'll see that my "hit rate" meaning successful projects, is on the low side. That doesn't matter; we're all here for the building experiences and for sharing our results. If you choose to remain planted in that arm chair, that's okay, but I'd venture to say replies to your posts will fall off exponentially.
I'd like to be able to point you to another forum that deals with theory only, but I've never seen one. Perhaps google it and see what pops up, eh?
Stick something together and post a picture of it here and we'll talk more.
. . . . . MacNothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas
VAWT Newbie Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 13
Posted: 06:51pm 01 Sep 2010
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Posting info on a site like this actually provides prior art and I have 1 year to file for patent. I also mailed myself a copy of the design so I have a sealed post marked copy. I know about patents and have done a patent search on VAWTs but this one may get away because patents are too expensive. If I can't or don't patent it then nobody can...then it will be open for all to build and sell. The only thing unique about my design is the tracks and diverter tracks.
Here is my other arm chair utility patent that I did build a prototype.
And here is the old designer in his arm chair in his back shed.
Call it free SPAM from www.bulletbobber.com
MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329
Posted: 07:05pm 01 Sep 2010
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VAWT
Thanks for the pictures. It wasn't what I had in mind, but it's a start at least.
As for patents and the like, I think you have to actually have something before you can patent it. I know ideas are patentable, but in this case, the idea part has been kicking around for many hundreds of years. I think any patents from here on in would be in the form of a design patent, for an actual thing-a-ma-jig if you will. With that said, I think this might be one of those "cart before the horse" situations. Build it and get the bugs out, then go for that patent.
Nice looking bobbers by the way. I'm allergic to fish, so I stay away from the little critters, but I'm sure there are lots of folks here who'd be interested in your gadgets.
Nice arm chair too. It brings to mind the "thinking couch" from that movie, Honey I Shrunk The Kids.
. . . . . MacNothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas
VAWT Newbie Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 13
Posted: 07:30pm 01 Sep 2010
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You have 1 year to file after conception. You can stall it for another couple years while you work out the bugs. Just an individual part (the diverter tracks) could be a utility patent though it has no value on its own. Lots of patents have been granted for things that never got built.
My kids didn’t shrink…they grew up…and flew away…can you blame them! Dad’s a quack!
Here is the most difficult thing I ever built but the wife did the sowing.
A pop up 6'x6'x6' ice shanty with bench seats you can sleep on. It folds down to 3'x1.5'x6' and stores all my gear including heater, cook stove, radio, deep cycle battery, fish finder, ice auger, rods, and tackle.
Edited by VAWT 2010-09-03
VAWT Newbie Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 13
Posted: 09:38pm 01 Sep 2010
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OK I have looked into solar panels and the price / watt is no good at all. You would have to be off the grid, really rich and concerned about the environment or off your rocker, keeping in mind the sun doesn't ever shine all day and panels can easily be damaged by hail, baseballs etc. If you lived in the desert maybe a good idea if you can get a really really good deal.
Yes, a turbine will not produce power when wind isn't blowing but if it isn't spinning it isn't wearing out. Rotational molded plastic is kid tuff...see Little Tykes...the stuff will last a long long time.
This 4' sand box retails for $39.95 and probably doesn't cost half that to make.
It is the cost of the molds that's the killer for me.
BulletBobber molds were cheap but only because I had them made in China for 1/10th any US quote.
Edited by VAWT 2010-09-03
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 01:11am 02 Sep 2010
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Hi Vawt
I like your ice fishing shelter, I see a market potential for that as well in kit form and it fits with what you are doing at the moment.
If I may say so, looking at that, you certainly have the skill to make a proof of concept model of your wind mill. I would follow Macks lead and get a couple of sheets of coreflute and a good set of cutters, and some hot glue, grab a set of wheels off the kids skates that they left behind when they flew the coup, a few 1/2" dowels for pivots and some fencing wire to make push rods.
It wont last long in the wind bur will help you to sort out thee bugs. Sorry you will have to get out of the thinking chair but such is the life of an inventor innovator.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
Perry Senior Member Joined: 19/11/2009 Location: Posts: 190
Posted: 03:05am 02 Sep 2010
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Hey VAWT,
I like following these threads. The plight of the VAWT people has unfortunately been sealed by the cruel hand of physics but they do seem to have high levels of enthusiasm. Usually when a person that knows nothing about wind power wants to get into it to 'turn a profit' they start with a VAWT. When a person NEEDS to make power to live or sell, they end up with a HAWT. But you've heard that drum beat before so I won't.
As far as the armchair designer part, please take no offense but a wind turbine is not a bobber. T Here are so many interactions between so many different components and principals that it doesn't really work to design without prototyping. Even the guys that design the big utility turbines proto right up to the end, calibrating models and addressing un-thought of harmonic issues. So please take that into account.
I question your comment that a VAWT will provide better low speed performance over a HAWT. Why do you think this?
I can help you though!
There is a forum at www.vawts.net that I think you will like. Many discussions on 'paper turbines', theory, ideas such as yours and so forth. A few on there have even built turbines. None of them are making any appreciable power or are reliable. Still, I think you will be inspired by reading through some of the posts. I like to browse it from time to time.
Perry
VAWT Newbie Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 13
Posted: 02:00pm 02 Sep 2010
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Perry,
How dare you question an old arm chair nut case!
A SAV starts producing at lower wind speeds then a HAWT for the simple reason it takes the blunt perpendicular force of the wind to provide torque and a HAWT uses the deflective (twisted blades) force to create torque. The forces have to go thru one more transition in direction on a HAWT and a DAR. If blades have equal exposure area as shown below the little SAV starts producing power first. This has nothing to do with wind swept area just start up torque and low wind speed utilization. HAWTs and DARs don’t produce anything until wind reaches a much higher speed then a SAV requires.
Must replace VAWT with SAV to be correct. This idea isn't exactly true because the length of the blades being longer (stick out further form the shaft) on the HAWT providing some additional leverage torque. If they were the same size height the SAV would sart a lot sooner.
They have built some big DARs but the problem was they didn't hold up. It wasn't the theory that was bad it was the size and materials of construction. The other draw back was they didn't start producing power until the wind speed was high...same a HAWT. SAVs start producing at lower wind speeds then any turbine.
Here is a DAR SAV that is pretty neat but the forces work against each other instead complimenting each other. Basically it uses the SAV (inner) to start the DAR (outer) and shows a SAV starts first. On this one the DAR creates drag on the SAV reducing its low wind speed power. You must have blade pitch control to eliminate the counter productive forces. And it cost a pant load!
I did do some arm chair homework before I started this post/project!
Patent search, Wiki was most helpful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAWT, searched YouTube for VAWTs (many amaizing designs) and I also spent a lot of time at the AWEA American Wind Energy Association website http://www.awea.org/
Edited by VAWT 2010-09-04
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 02:39pm 02 Sep 2010
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Hi Vawt
I used a SAV as a starter on my large VAWT but mounted it on the top to reduce flow interference and hinged the blades so when the VAWT started to speed up the SAV blades swung out to form a barrel effect to reduce drag.
I understand what you are saying as I spent many months experimenting wit various setups and blade configurations, even had my engineer who worked for me in on it, as he was an aeronautical engineer, but to get useful power for what we where looking at we ended up with a 12 ft diameter 20 foot high machine and it worked very well but cost to much to make so wasn't a commercial success in the market. reason being it had to be built strong to withstand high winds as a light construction prototype simply blew to pieces in a storm.
I will be making another for the hell of it and to log results for the forum later this year so I will let you know when It is happening.
All the best
Bob
.Foolin Around
VAWT Newbie Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 13
Posted: 04:04pm 02 Sep 2010
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VK4AYQ,
If you want to try and build one that looks just like mine I can't and won't stop you but if you tried to market it we would have to work things out. I insist on at least one penny for each unit sold or I'll sick my daughter on you. She is graduating form law school next spring and IP litigation is her specialty.
The idea of a SAV starter is not my goal. I want to use that low wind speed as feeble as it is to produce power and only SAV is good at that. The wind may only be strong enough to power a DAR a small % of the time but could power a SAV a large % of the time. You need to take advantage of all wind speeds from 2-100 mph.
As far as materials???
I’ll draw everyone a simple comparison of materials:
Not counting being run over by a car…
How many broken metal tricycles have seen?
How many broken Little Tykes tricycles have you seen?
Rotational molded plastic last almost forever.
MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329
Posted: 04:26pm 02 Sep 2010
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[Quote=VAWT]I insist on at least one penny for each unit sold or I'll sick my daughter on you. She is graduating form law school next spring and IP litigation is her specialty.
See, I told you so! It might be good to look back at my original couple of posts if you're wondering where this is going.
Edit: Hmmm . . . I could have sworn this was the thread I tossed my can of Spam at; maybe I'm confused. That being said, I think this thread has strayed off the DIY pathway, if it was even ever there.
Here we are talking about donations, royalties, lawsuits and the like and there's not even a prototype sitting on anyone's workbench! Maybe this is all in jest, still what was likely in the back of everyone's mind is now in black and white on the printed page to erase all doubts.
Spam or not, the fishing lures are pretty cool. I can't say I'm as enamored about the rest of this post though.
Maybe there should be a special section on the 4m for folks who are trying to attract investment capital. There's a classified section, why not a special section for this sort of thing too?
I'll not beat my drum any longer, except to leave this discussion with this: This is a DIY platform. Build something!
. . . . . Mac
Edited by MacGyver 2010-09-04Nothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 05:51pm 02 Sep 2010
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With your injection molded plastic and the foam blades i really dont think you understand how much force is applied to the turbine.
I cannot help feeling the first good blow that it encounters it will fly to bits, under the shear loading of the wind force.
If plastic was so good to build mills out of dont you think the plastic kings of the world China, would be doing it already, as its not because they havent thought of it.
I know you have done some research but there is nothing like flying a turbine in real wind under every day conditions.
The wind is so dynamic in its behavior that it can not be predicted.
To build one for a particular location, knowing the average wind conditions is one thing but to market a all round mill is very different.
This is why we keep saying build a model Vawt and fly it for a while, it dont need to be as per your design, just a Vawt.
You really need to witness the effects of mother nature and study her for a while, and after a few good windy days you will learn more than a month searching on wikie.
Perry is an engineer who works in the design and construction of large commercial windmills, so i would not sweep his comments under the mat quite so fast.
Not everyone here is a armchair critic and some have industry based knowledge and others have hands on knowledge.
Pete.Edited by Downwind 2010-09-04Sometimes it just works
Perry Senior Member Joined: 19/11/2009 Location: Posts: 190
Posted: 07:53pm 02 Sep 2010
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That's not fair. I have more fun working on my Otherpower 10 footer than my 90 meter 2.2 MW turbine. Maybe a F&P next.
VAWT, I challenge your assertion that you will get better low speed perf from a SAV. Primarily because just spinning does not mean to perform. There is only a set amount of power in the wind, which goes up with the cube of the windspeed. I see this argument as a red herring and a lot of the youtube experts claim this is a big deal when it is a non-issue. What you are talking about is a major design decision based on capturing the 1-5 watts of power in the very low wind regime while sacrificing hundreds and hundreds of watts on the top end. Do you have any "DATA" that supports your position or the position of the other VAWT aficionados that show I am wrong? Power curves perhaps, which would be definitive proof. Both turbines will have to come up to cut-in speed as neither provide adequate voltage at low winds to do anything. By the time the wind is blowing fast enough to spin your VAWT with it's gearbox up to cut-in speed you have enough windspeed for the HAWT blades or Darius lift blades to produce power. Claims of better low speed performance by VAWTS are often wildly made by so many but I have never seen a power curve to back it up. Neither at the AWEA conference or the NREL test reports. I was just out at NREL last week and had a discussion on the Windspire they were testing. Without saying too much I would just recommend that you locate some actual data that reinforces your position. While sitting in your arm chair I recommend that you get on the NREL website and read the Windspire test report. It is public. It will really open your eyes as to the difficulties that companies with actual research budgets have getting a VAWT to work.
As far as the DIY comments, Mac is the consummate DIY'er and a great forum member. But I think that not everyone has to be a garage builder. I like the theoretical discussions as well. I think you ware worried about protecting a design that already has gobs of prior art, has never been built, and (I could be wrong here) has no mathematical model to prove that it does anything better than current technologies. It's OK to put the horse before the cart but not so far that one can't see it due to the curvature of the earth.
Perry
VAWT Newbie Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 13
Posted: 09:25pm 02 Sep 2010
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Mac,
OK I will build one with 4 blades that are 1'x2' out of balsa and pine. I have said I don't know how many blades to use or what blade profile is best but I will build one as practice. I am not a spammer or a joker and I really want to help create a better wind turbine. A penny a piece is all I would want. You guys build things for fun and I design things for fun.
I have contacted the wind research center at Case Western Reserve and they have read this thread and replied to my enquiry. I am asking for their help with blade design if they see potential. I'm guessing they won't but hope they do. There are possibilities for it being useful in some situations even if it doesn't make it into Wal-Mart.
Perry,
The title / subject of this post is (Is a DAR to SAV morph the answer) If I knew I wouldn't ask. I looked at the Wind Spire a month ago and the testing was never completed because it broke like a metal tricycle ridden by a very large child!
If a HAWT blade tip diameter equals a VAWT blade height the surface area is more than 20 times larger and it will start spinning first and produce torque first because of the difference. If I am wrong, give me some logic why I am wrong that I can understand. I have not studied power curves of different styles. Have you ever looked at flapper mills. My SAV is more like one of them than a barrel cut into two pieces. Flappers have the flapping problem and mine has controled swing.
Edited by VAWT 2010-09-04
VAWT Newbie Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 13
Posted: 02:34am 03 Sep 2010
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As far as China inventing things... I think for the most part they just make things we invent. If the labor in the US and China were the same we would be plastic Kings and manufacturing Kings of everything that could be made. Any plastic molded products that can be fully automated are made in the US because shipping is expensive. No company wants to have things made in China but the cost of labor is so lopsided.
As far as me not understanding the force of the wind. I feel it will hold up because it is small and has very light foam blades and only testing will prove it one way or another.
As far me sweeping Perry's comments under the mat. I am not sweeping any comments under the mat. I want to know if my replies are not satisfactory.
The biggest worry I have about the design is when the blades are running in the SAV track. When they are in the DAR track they are not moving in and out and will operate like any fixed bladed DAR. But the SAV track is troubling. If you look at the plan view (lower left) the blades are not in the optimal position in the 3 o'clock thru 12 o'clock position. There is one patent that I found that uses tracks and keeps the blades in the ideal position all the way thru 360 rotation, it rotates the blades once each shaft rotation but it is strictly a SAV. I’ll see if I can find that patent again and post it. It was the only one I found that used grooved tracks and blade pins like mine. When I first saw it I thought it was the same because it had intersecting tracks.
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 02:54am 03 Sep 2010
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For a model and a starting point, you could use the wooden blades that are used in timber window shutters.
They are light weight and have a airfoil profile.
I just want you to witness when mother nature gets nastie, and is hell bent on wrecking all your good work like a naughty child.
What about UV and plastic, even stabilized plastic still degrades in sunlight.
I think you will need to have a metal rod running top to bottom of your blades to even have a hope of support and strength.
Have a play with mother nature for a while and im sure you will agree on many comments made here.
Pete.Sometimes it just works
Perry Senior Member Joined: 19/11/2009 Location: Posts: 190
Posted: 06:07am 03 Sep 2010
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That should be on a bronze plaque somewhere.
Perry
grolly Regular Member Joined: 19/05/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 62
Posted: 04:44am 05 Sep 2010
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Hi VAWT,
Go for it buddy,the expreimenting that these guys did to aquire all this information is fun, successes and failures combined, so if you build it the wind will come and some power will be made.
this wirrlygig runs two F&p old style rewire, sat night putting out 15 a at 13.4 v, each while the house was running off the inverter.
Half the fun is in the building
Grolly I have bought the farm...now I AM powering it...
ProTow Newbie Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: United StatesPosts: 29
Posted: 05:54am 05 Sep 2010
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now thats Kewl.. If it works the First time You did something Wrong.
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 04:32pm 05 Sep 2010
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Thats art not a windmill
I would think it would get a fair old rattle up in a good blow.
What sort of RPM do you get out of it.
13.4 volts is a little on the low side for charging batteries, 13.8 to 14.2 is what is really needed. (for 12 volt)
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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I recommend that you get on the NREL website and read the Windspire test report. It is public. It will really open your eyes as to the difficulties that companies with actual research budgets have getting a VAWT to work.
