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Forum Index : Windmills : New 500W+ Chinese Windmill
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| dwyer Guru  Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 574 |
Hi Gizmo Let me have my say as i have feel this windmill discussion forum has changed a lot for the past 12 months. Since i have last shown my homemade windmill assembly however look, no one is interested in my project same with other ex forum member have disappeared for a similar reason. There is no interest and haven’t seen Aussie homemade F&P or Homemade windmill in this forum for awhile so what happened to it? The same reason as I have feel I have been rejected out of the aircraft cockpit. I have sent several E-mails to well know members discussing about Windmill blades including “Wanted to buy” aluminium blades again” No reply “this time I have been rejected out to Mars this time . 
Dwyer |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Ian I'm afraid I have been quiet on the project front, as I'm basically without a back shed until my place is sold and I find a new home. I can do a few small electonics type projects, nothing big. But once I do get set up again I'll put up some more idea's and project to get things sparked up a bit. Dont ever think no one is interesed in what you or anyone else is up to, its allways good to see what others are working on, even if it is a little quiet from time to time. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
Geez.... I consider myself an avid windmiller..... having flogged F&P's into the hundreds via here and ebay, bought bits and Blades from both Anthony and Phillm. and BOTH I now consider mates, keeping in touch regularly, telling stories etc. Now to the harsh reality..... unfortunately building a mill for next to nothing is a pipe dream -a dream we all had for the F&P the reality is that building a mill is both a labor of love and a significant cost and for many of us without the welder, lathe, (chainsaw hehe for you OZ)etc simply too difficult and out of reach. I would have spent $500 in beer (drinking) just drawing up the options for a tower let alone the mill itself. I applaude Phill for being brutally honest -cant build an F&P for what it costs to buy this little Chinese mill ---****with a freakin tower*****---- My F&P dual is a testament to Phills attention to detail and the engineering and time behind it yield a quality product. BUT who are we kidding? In China, the guys putting these together are working for a week for what we charge by the hour!! ....Thus, my final opinion would I buy another F&P dual YES would I buy a chinese mill that uses the same blades, a better motor design that makes more power, comes with a tower, slip rings and all the jazz? I'd be a dumbo to say no. SO -what do I get for less than half the money of my F&P and tower? something I can play with and develop..... same as F&P YES something that will be rewarding and interesting.....same as F&P YES will it invoke further interest in a "proper" mill ie AXFX etc my oath YES. thus is it a worthwhile starting point similar to the F&P again YES Did I want to get something like this for my first mill again YES did i learn alot along the way scary how much YES (excuse the units KW/hr debate) do i consider Phillm to be an honest bloke YES lastly -OZ you do have a valid point but Phill gets away with it due to the testing and advise that you dont get elsewhere when you buy a cheap turbine. I'm glad we can all be honest here and EVERYONE has valid points here and this is why this forum beats the sh*t out of Energymatters, Whirlpool, Hugh piggots site and several others that I regularly visit. Gordon, OZ, Phillm, Pete, Bruce, Brian, Gizmo, Perry, Jimbo I have read pretty much everything you guys post and its all pretty much inspiring. It is disappointing at times when we start swinging the axe at each other -usually over bullsh*t minor technicalities that ultimately in the scheme of things dont matter that much. A great example of this was my mill where I carefully sought advise re wiring dump loads etc only to be told after the fact OH but you should have done this. bit freakin late! good thing Pete has a level head and worked it through and Gordon sorted me with some fancy settings for the PL20 for some redundant systems. Phillm chin up mate, looks like the axes have been ground and anyone with less money and machines than it takes to build an F&P in its most basic form should buy the CHinese one you are offering as it makes for a great start!  Luck favours the well prepared |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I will put in my 2 cents worth here, I think that Phil is doing a service to the forum with his mill, and its not a new mill they have been available for a while complete with all the bugs that come with a Chinese mill, Phil is sorting these out and providing the information to all and sundry on the forum. Here is a handy little mill that would form a good starter mill for someone on a budget and without the money or capabilities to scratch build one, This complete mill costs less than the magnets for my AFX mill, so I don't think Phil will become rich out of it. And that includes the tower. Some members do not have the time or skill to build their own, but that doesn't make them any less the enthusiast for the cause, and I am sure they will go on to bigger and better things in the future. I look at the adventures of Mcguyver in his AFX mini mill development and he has more hits than anything else on the forum at the moment, and it is only his toy, but I don't see much other development of projects to keep the interest of members alive. Remember that a body needs an arse hole so the brain doesn't get full of excrement, so work in harmony and don't poke with pointed sticks, its only yourself you are hurting in the long run. Should this mill be in the for sale section, YES and it is, but whats wrong with it being in the general information section as a general discussion NOTHING. When I read the older posts there was a lot of interest and project development, but now it has faded, and the members that have the brains to do wonders within the forum are arguing and being pedantic, it seems like a good s**T fight is more interesting than reading about someones good work and if they make a little out of it, that is heresy, just keep in mind that Phil's' work may inspire members to order a wheel motor and try to make one themselves as we are prone to do from time to time, The important thing is it keeps the interest alive in the forum. We can argue about watts, amps, electrons, tsr, blade profile, and efficiency, amongst ourselves but don't knock someone that is trying a bit harder to get parts and little mills into the hands of those who don't know how or cant due to time constraints. I think we should support one another as a band of enthusiasts and encourage any one who has a go. We really appreciate the input and constructive criticism of our more learned members, and they are the lifeblood of the forum, but it still needs a body, and the body is dumb like me to the finer points of the art. Of the soapbox All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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AMACK Senior Member  Joined: 31/05/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 184 |
Hi ALL. You may have read Phill's Post and know that I have got one of his mills. I have in the past made F&P mills and still do. I love working with junk and turning it into someting that works and produces some power regardless of the amount. I got one of these mill from Phill and intend to start a post of what I am doing with it and the outputs I am getting from It. I have had a lot of stuff ups along the way but that the fun of it. I have turned good blades into crap and elcetronic components into ash but I will still keep going till I work it, out or Electrocute my self. I hope that no one objects to the posting's I put up as it is only intended to help other learn by my stuff ups because if there is one to make I will make it . ( Just ask PETE). I have spent alot of time and money of F&P setup and alot of them have failed due to my mistakes. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to calculating forces and effects on wind mill disign's and the correct set's and have asked alot of questions and still will. I got the mill off Phill to keep the wife off my back as I dont have time to fix alot of my mistakes at the moment as I have a young family with three kids under 4. I need something more reliable then my own construction attemps at the momment. I have got Phill's mill, Gordons cap doubler and Pete's logger and I would have nothing if it was not for this SITE and there help.. AMACK *Note to self 1. Make it thick 2.Make it heavy. 3.Make it stronger than it should be. 4. Don't rush the first job as the second job will cost more and take mor |
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| JimBo911 Senior Member Joined: 26/03/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 262 |
I usually try keep my postings to things I know about, things I don't know and the project I am working on. This posting is about what I know. I for one owe a lot to this forum and it's members. I could not have accomplished what I have with out it. The time, money and energy the BackShed and it's members has saved me is immeasurable. People that ask me about or visit my place actually think I know just about every thing there is to know about wind mills. (Imagine that) Ever club, forum, team, group and organization that ever existed had there differences too. What really counts is how those differences are handled and that things were learned because of those differences. I know this is what matters most. Jim |
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| nofear Newbie  Joined: 20/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 11 |
Hi everyone, just joined this site and had a good look around. Read this thread with keen interest and would like to commend karlJ on a great post. As a newbie, I am grateful that these new modified Chinese wind generators are available and I see no conflict of interest, nor any issue re offtopic, as the info on mods provided is available for others to DIY. To me this is a gift to members, selflessly offered, and if the poster makes a bit of money out of selling complete modified units, or parts, to those who want to buy them that way,,,then more power to him. Full marks also for the candour from Phil about price/ efficiency compared with the FP models. In other worlds, this info may have been suppressed, and we all know what good that does lol. For someoene like me who lacks the skills to do all the work myself, this is a very valuable resource indeed. At least I have another option now. I have been wary of the Chinese outfits and now can see that they can be viable with mods. IMO this new development has enriched this site, not detracted from it in any way. You are all to be congratulated for your your efforts and evolution thus far and I sincerely hope that this will continue as I value all your input. This is an awesome site. a widely held belief is not necessarily a fact |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
cheers nofear BTW seriousy .... how much money do you think Phill makes out of an $800 mill with tower? i would bet its under $50-100 which barely (if at all) would cover interest on the money outlayed, so pretty rough to quibble about making a buck! geez if I counted my hours even at $10/hr just getting F&P's, re-wiring laquering etc etc etc I made nothing out of flogging the little buggers either! Come to think of it Phill and I talked about on one occasion, to prep an F&P for flight even with everything else complete takes 1/2 a day and $50 in materials, laquer, pole twisting, grinding off the high spots after twisting, plastic primer, topcoat etc etc etc. SO back to the topic now I think. Phillm -will there be any possibility of a 48V version to come? Luck favours the well prepared |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi All , Firstly thanks , Karl,Nofear,jimbo911,Amack,Bob for your positive comments with regards to this post . I will not harp on any more about what is right and what is wrong as I think that if Glenn thinks something is not appropiate then he will remove it from the forum . Anyway getting back to what keeps us all comming here , Karl you asked whether there is a 48V version of these , I have posted a picture below of a larger motor that was sent to me with the Kits to have a play with . 
As you can see the difference in size between the 500W motor and a F&P and that in lathe testing I was able to get over 1000w out of the small one , compared to a max of 350W out of a F&P . The bigger one definatly holds hope for a 48v . To get 48v out of the small 500w motor would mean a cut-in Rpm of over 600rpm I would think, the bigger motor I have not put into testing as yet but I did have it connected to a doubler and spin it up by hand with a volt meter on and it gets up very quick . I believe it has 62poles , Neo magnets like the smaller motor . The Company is making them into a bigger wind generator and rating it @ 2Kw , but I have not seen the finished product, but I am lead to believe they are going away from up wind to downwind models. I am currently building a full test bench using a 6.5Hp engine with a 2:1 Reduction box and then reducing again with two multi v drives of 3:1 & 6.5:1 which will give me two speed ranges of 90 to 200Rpm and 200 to 600 . This will be set for testing with full logging to a laptop of output and also with ability to measure input torque . Once i get this set up I will be able to get a better idea of what kind of grunt the bigger motor can produce as the 500w Stalls my lathe out over 1kw . The primary reason for the test bench will be for of course the Ax 300 & Ax 400 PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Phill Very interesting, I had looked at the 48 volt 1000 watt motor with just that in mind the only thing that needed doing was to beef up the shaft where the wires come out as it is designed for a bike frame, I haven't done anymore due to the projects already on the bench. Also if you need to do some testing you are welcome to come and use my lathe as it is 15 HP so it wont stall out in a hurry, as I am home 99 percent of the time you can do it at your convenience. A question on the ALUM blades, can you supply a set of three at 1.5 meters as I will need a set soon, I could come and pickup if postage is a problem. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
These hub motor stators are wound with several wires at once ( in hand ), not sure the exact number. Each pole only has a few turns. I think it would be relatively easy to rewind these stators compared to a F&P. You could also split the wires in hand into two, and then connect the start of one bundle to the end of the other bundle. So if there are 8 wires run together, split the ends into 2 lots of four, you would need a multimeter to work out which wire is which. This will effectively double the output voltage, half the output current, watts stays the same. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
I took down a 3KW westwind at RISE today... lets just say Phills F&P dual although missing the massive sliprings it better engineered in the blade mounting dept! would suit AMACK down to the ground, thick, heavy monster. BTW it never made 3KW topped out at 2KW funny the "experts" told me it was because it was a poor wind site, I said thats funny it was furling the other day in the wind thus it should have been at max power, no excuses!! says to me that nothing is what it seems in the world of wind Luck favours the well prepared |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
I changed my mill from star to delta on the weekend. In star its worked well for 24v, but all my gear is 12 volts, so I took Phills advise and rewired the stator into delta. The stator connections are behind the stator, meaning I needed to remove the motor entirely from the nacelle before I could reach the wire connections. While I was at it I drilled out the center hole and pushed through 3 2.5mm wires to replace the factory 1.8mm wires. I separated the phases and poked all the wires throught the stator holes and secured them to the front of the stator. This will mean I only need to pop off the front cover if I wanted to change the star/delta configuration in the future. 
Cut in for 12v has risen from about 90 RPM to 130RPM. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| AMACK Senior Member Joined: 31/05/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 184 |
Glenn, The turbine I have from Phill is also now in Delta. This is because I am running 24 volt system. I am Very happy with the construction of the turbine it's self I am hanging out to get the thing off the bench and up the tower. The boxing for the cement is done and all ready to pour tommorrow with luck. I should have it running by the weekend. Like I said it's in delta and data logger is set up ready to log. So as of Saturday there will be no wind in Victoria for a week. 
AMACK P.S Should I paint the Ally blades or leave the raw? *Note to self 1. Make it thick 2.Make it heavy. 3.Make it stronger than it should be. 4. Don't rush the first job as the second job will cost more and take mor |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Nice work Glenn now you need some wind , then extend the blades, tail and tweek the furl point and you will be getting some good Watts . Amack , It is personal choice to paint , I leave mine unpainted at present but I would like to paint some them in the future , remember that the paint will affect balance, also you can use paint to balance . The pic below is another Mod I did to Amacks , it allows easier removal of the generator so you can put it on the blade balance tool , feeding those wires through the tube while holding the gen & blade head is a bit trying , I drilled a hole in the back of the generator mount and in the side of the yaw bearing tube and it makes it a whole lot easier getting it on and off . 
PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
The pics below show an easy way of setting all the blades at the correct angle when doing the blade extension mod . The blade tubes have approx 3deg of movement in the bolt holes , if you set the angle with the tubes in the centre of their movement @ 12deg then the blades can be adjusted to their min and max Angle of Attack ( 8 - 10deg through the cord or when you set thm on the flat as shown 3deg needs to be added . 
Pic shows the block cut at 12deg , these will hold the blade in position while drilling a riveting the new holes 
I have been putting together a DIY guide with all the info on what I have done to these to get them performing better , I will eventually have it in the Kit&Parts section as a down load or I can email the info if required . PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Phill Looks good to me a simple and effective way to adjust the angles. Have you got a spec sheet on the airfoil as I cant finf my airfoil book to do the checking I want to do. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Phill, Great work! Keep it up and congratulations to Glenn for his comments on Phill's work. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| dwyer Guru Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 574 |
Hi Everyone Just to let all the windmill member since l brought windmill from Phill’s few weeks ago and doing some work on it for last couple week and really l am extremely happy and is very easy and simple to work on  and at the moment still not up in the air yet hopefully in next couple week when l have some spare time however on this coming weekend l start digging hole and pour cement for footing sighting larger and larger bolts reason pole will be 9 or 10 metre taller and support cable must go on for safety reason
Dwyer the bushman |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi All, If any one was following Amacks mill, which is one of these a couple of weeks ago through the live piclog page here , you would have seen one of these reaching peaks in excess of 1600w. However the down side to that is it was short lived at those output levels and it cooked the stator . I feel it was most likley a combination of running at the high output figures with no air flow accross the stator windings and also being hot when the shorting switch was thrown it had to disipate the heat internally, as it was running up intil the point the switch was thrown and the next day it would not when the switch was turned of to start . In the pics of the modified ou can see the smoke pattern on the webs and also a point where a flash over occured which was probably the final groan when it was shorted at high RPMs. Off course there are some other things that would have contributed, this being the strength of the wind which bent the upper extension pole the mill is mounted on. As Amack does not have wind speed on his logger as yet I can only imagine the wind strength to do this . Also the blade size of 2.7m and the furl set . The blades should have been fully furled in that wind but with the tail kicker on the end of the tail it may not have allowed a full furl in these wind strengths . For one of these mills in a HIGH WIND ZONE I would now recomend the blade size to be no more than 2.55m , the furl set angles to be 11-12deg side 7-8deg back and the tail kicker to be almost straight (if using the specs given on the tail mod sheet) The stator and covers to be modified for cooling as shown below and the use of high temp wiring for the wiring mods . Also if the shorting switch is to be used to stop it then to do so when it is in a wind lull or under 400rpm . 
The pics below show the heat that built up inside the generator , it became hot enough to melt the plastic as well as solder . The stator windings are all shorted to the core as well the wiring is fused together. 
Amack has the modified covers back now and is doing the blade size and furling and hopfully will be up and running again soon . I wish I had his problem of having to much WIND 
PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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