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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Steam powered electricity
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Dave As far as I know it isn't in production or even listed anywhere, it was in an old book I picked up at the second hand bookshop, it gave a very detailed description of the device, I think it was made in England. The boiler was a casting of a whole fire place that was installed in the house brick chimney and surrounded with insulation to prevent to much heat loss into the bricks, the steam engine and generator was attached to the back of the chimney, it also had a hot water feed for the hot water system and an external radiator made from copper tubes on the condenser side. I made a boiler up out of 1/2" plate and fitted it into the chimney, however the wife had a fit with the steam engine running in the passageway, we had four little kids at the time so it was deemed to dangerous, I was going to relocate it outside but never got around to doing it. I used the boiler to heat the hot water system but it was much to large and boiled the HWS all the time, so I pulled it out and used it in the workshop as a heater driving four car radiators. It gets cold in Victoria. The steam engine was used to charge the workshop batteries, and was sold eventually to another alternate energy nut like me. The system could be duplicated but would require a workshop with a good welder to make the boiler. The steam engine I made used mostly standard industrial bearings and a cylinder kit of a steam locomotive model made for hobby locos by the local foundry. The boiler was tested to 500 psi so it would be very safe, much safer than the original cast iron one The boiler worked at 20 psi and I got 8" of vacuum on the condenser, with the 6" x6" bore stroke steam engine it would run a 50 amp 44Volt generator to charge the 32 volt batteries. The batteries where from a 32 volt system I decommissioned when the farm got commercial power, at that time they wouldn't allow you to have alternate power if you wanted to connect to the SWER line. With the power you are needing you could make a very small unit, this one was meant to run a whole house including a 32 volt fridge and wash-machine, radio electric iron, a 240 volt transverter and other useful items. I have thought of making these units but all the liability problems have stopped me as steam, even at low pressure can be dangerous to life and limb, more so if its sitting in the lounge room. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| davef Guru Joined: 14/05/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 499 |
Bob, Thank you very much for the details. Well, this is getting more and more interesting. The house plans should be approved in about two weeks with construction work starting in 2-3 months. The opportunity to plumb the generator in and ensure I can recover most of the heat is still available. The father of a workmate is into steam trains in a big way, so I'll tap into that source for info. We hope to install a Rayburn with a built-in boiler to do the central heating, so perhaps an extra heating coil in the boiler side of it is worth considering. I have access to all the gear to make such a thing, so I am to flying off to get as many plans as possible. Really appreciated your time and effort in conveying this info to me. Kind regards, Dave |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
davef et al I officially gave up on steam many years ago, but I think it appropriate for me to throw in my 2-cent's worth right about here. Steam comes in two forms: wet & dry. That translates to low-pressure (wet) and high-pressure (dry). It also translates in the same order to dangerous and really dangerous. For a home application, in my opinion, it would be better to build a boiler that uses less fuel and heats the feed water to a lower final temperature to build wet steam. This is steam you can see in the air as opposed to dry steam, which is not visible until it has traveled 15 or 20 feet through the air and had a chance to condense a bit into visible moisture. This all boils down (no pun intended) to hydraulics. You can get the same power out of a large-diameter piston running on wet steam as you can from a small-diameter piston running on dry steam. The only difference is stroke length and speed. It's the reverse of how your hydraulic brakes work in your automobile. The brake pedal is a large-diameter piston with a short stroke and the "slave" cylinders out on the wheels are smaller-diameter pistons (or calipers) with a longer stroke; same difference. Now, the reason I gave up on steam: In either case (wet or dry) you will find out that "lubrication" will be your biggest concern. It's no easy nut to crunch and there are volumes and volumes of ideas on the subject, but the fact remains that lubrication will be the biggest headache. And in the immortal words of Forest Gump, "That's all I'm gonna say about that." 
. . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| davef Guru Joined: 14/05/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 499 |
Mac, Thanks for a reality check. I will focus on lub issues. I am very familiar with IC engines, but appreciate that there will be some different issues to deal with keeping water out of things and trying to achieve reasonable efficiency. Cheers, Dave |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
davef You can easily keep the water out by keeping the working parts HOT. Don't let the steam condense on cold engine parts and that's half the battle. However (don't you just hate that there's always a ''however''?) the drier the steam (hotter), the more corrosive it becomes and when your engine starts "talking" to you (making nasty noises as it runs) it's already too late; the damage is done. My advise is to use Teflon bushings whenever possible, run slowly and keep tolerances really loose. All you'll gain by close tolerances is more and quicker wear, which is exactly what you don't want. So much for my not saying anything more about this subject, eh? 
Edit: Make your rings using Teflon tape rolled between your hands and wrapped into the grooves. Run them in with a drill attached to the main shaft and crank the crap out of things (run it fast!) until things will spin with your hand. Even doing it this way, you'll need to construct an "oil cup" and use glycerine. Best wishes. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| davef Guru Joined: 14/05/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 499 |
Mac, Sounds like getting a steam engine to run reliably and get a reasonable lifetime of it is a bit of a "black art". 6 hours a day for 4 months of the year (200-300Watts/hour) is what I am thinking will keep batteries topped up. I'll keep your suggestions in mind as I research the topic. Thanks, Dave |
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Woodsworks Newbie  Joined: 16/08/2010 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9 |
I've only skimmed through all the replies so I might have missed something - anyone thought of using a steam turbine? The original steam turbines as first applied to ships were essentially pelton wheels; not as efficient as later designs of steam turbine but not as technologically demanding either, as they did not require fine clearances. This would avoid most if not all of the corrosion issues encountered when trying to use steam in a reciprocating engine. The only major issue I can think of is the amount of noise it might make. Woody of Whangas "To have never failed is to have never discovered the full extent of one's potential" |
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| nofear Newbie Joined: 20/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 11 |
HI Dave, before you give up on steam, check this out. www.strathsteam.com.au has a home electric/hotwater steam system for about 11k and it is claimed to be legal in NZ, plus it is les than 5sqm so comes under the boiler ticket regs etc. They have exported units to NZ and are aware of the regs etc. Strathsteam produces an excellent Pdf file going right into the ins and outs of owning one of these. The PDF file lists and asks you to consider the pros and cons before making a purchase. (you may have to email them to get this pdf, bt well worth it) The downside is that they require stoking and checking once an hour. However, the upside is that you might only have to run it at half pace for a couple of hours a day and it will give you heating, hot water and elec for a small amount of wood, any time of day or night or weather conditions, in a quiet simple fashion. Strathsteam make a 4-5 hp engine for about 4.5k...enough to power and heat three homes.. The boilers are about 7k. The unit can generate 2kva and supply heat and hot water, but it is advised to run the engine at half speed for longevity and economy. If you go to www.mikebrownsolutions.com you will see a range of new steam engines for sale in the USA , from 1hp to 20 hp (more than enough to power a car)and read about how steam is a supressed technology. There is also an article which claims that WW2 was used by the USA to phase out steam and other fuels and use up and foster the widespread use of oil, which was more easily taxed. It is claimed that a 1946 steam train used 1 cup of waer and 1 pound of coal to move 1 ton one mile. (less friction on rails than road but still impressive) www.thelibertyman.com/three_horsepower-engine.php is a 2kUSD engine. There are other engines on this site as well including a 1 h.p unit Strathsteam in Adelaide have building these engines since 1991. With a 50 yr plus life and abundant heat power and hot water, in colder climates with access to firewood this is an option well worth considering. Parts of Nz would be great candidates for this application. I'm seriously keen to do this and can see that there may be other places where this activity would exceed sun and wind power generation at far less cost. Another interesting article "is Steam in your future?" is worth a read. www.backwoodshome.com/articles/goebel43.html cheers steve a widely held belief is not necessarily a fact |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Steve Building the steam engine isn't that hard but the boiler is, but you can use a tube boiler like a Stanley steamer had and it isn't as much trouble to get certified as it doesn't have water storage in it, just the tube, have a Google on flash boiler. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| nofear Newbie Joined: 20/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 11 |
Hi Bob, hey thanks for the info. I'll be sure to check it out. (Hopefully lol), below is the PDF file I mentioned yesterday, for those interested. 2010-09-13_165701_strathsteam.pdf I was initially keen to install one of Phil's new wind units, but after monitoring the wind forecasts on the yr.no website,and considering our location, Im not sure if I will be able to get a clean enough and reliable enough wind flow as we will be on the side of a terraced hill. (I'll be able to get more of a handle on this once we move there.) As for sunlight, well there just hasn't been much of that these past couple of months according to the yr.no website. Again, I'll have more of a handle once we physically move there... cheers steve a widely held belief is not necessarily a fact |
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| davef Guru Joined: 14/05/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 499 |
Steve, Thank you the info especially the .pdf The boiler in the .pdf looks a serious beast. www.thelibertyman.com/three_horsepower-engine.php didn't work for me. I see in the last URL you quoted that he does NOT recommend messing about with your wood stove! 7K is a lot of change, does he make smaller boilers? I'll keep investigating. Cheers, Dave |
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| nofear Newbie Joined: 20/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 11 |
Hi Dave, re the USA engine, try this link instead.. www.thelibertyman.com/steam_44.php and if that doesn't work, just go to www.thelibertyman.com and click on the steam 44 logo. this will give you the entire range on one page I think. Re the strath boilers, the vertical boiler is a cheaper option...(the one in the boat pics) Is there a boiler locally available for you to do the job with one of these engines? Let me know if you find one. The boiler is a big part of the $600 shipping cost to NZ as well. Where cold weather happens and wind and sun aren't consistent, and house heating and abundant hot water are desirables, as well as longevity, I can see a place for it. When one can generate power at will, day or night, the size of the battery bank could probably be much smaller than a typical solar/wind setup... a considerable cost offset right there...especially long term. cheers steve a widely held belief is not necessarily a fact |
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| davef Guru Joined: 14/05/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 499 |
Steve, Thanks that worked. Nice engine. I'll keep my ears open for small boilers made locally. Have you seen any good plans for a 1HP engine? I have seen some for sale, but whether or not they are good . . . well I don't have a clue. You gave a credible summary of where this system could fit in. One issue that is different in my situation is that I hope to have about 300W/hour, during the winter, from microhydro. I could see this plant being useful for topping up batteries and for firing up on cold days when we do the lots of housework and use lotsa hot water. Work starts on the house within the next month so will try to leave all options open, as I can image that actually living off-grid could be different then dreaming about it! Dave |
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| nofear Newbie Joined: 20/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 11 |
Hey Dave, you are lucky to have a micro-hydro option. I may have one too, but wont know until I get to the property and measure flow and fall. Sorry I cant help you with plans. Found this website open-source article about Flash boilers. wikipedia gives some examples and a definition also of flash boilers. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________ Solid Fueled Flash Boiler Experiments by Steve Redmond website www.sredmund.com March 2004 I recently read with interest your discussion of flash boiler drive. It was a subject I was interested in last year just before I stopped work on my experimental engine. Last year I actually built an experimental flash boiler for solid fuel. It worked, though not well enough, and I thought I'd share the information I have on it with you and others here. I've seen several old articles on flash steam generation in gasoline torch fired boilers. These basically assume the form of copper or steel tubing wrapped in lengthwise flattened coils with an additional wrap of coil radially -- corkscrew style. The coils were housed in perforated sheet metal tubes and employ superheat. They were used to power early model aircraft and boats. They were fed by a force pump run off of the steam engine. The engines were radial piston types with rotary valves. As you know I cast my own metal parts, both for the disk turbine, and the lathe and milling attachments I used to build the engine. The foundry unit I use for melting metal is a Dave Gingery style charcoal fired bucket type with a homemade fireclay and sand-mix lining. This easily melts aluminum, and reportedly can melt brass if you are patient enough and provide enough fuel. That means it can produce temps near 3000 F, and 1000 degrees F is a piece of cake... It occurred to me that the foundry might, with some re-design, make a good heat source for a flash boiler. I'm very interested in producing a solid fueled engine, rather than a fluid fueled one -- that's why the foundry furnace was of interest, as opposed to the gas torch designs of the early models. Solid fuels other than coal are renewable and common and work with the total carbon atmospheric balance we already have, rather than introducing bound carbon into it. So I basically built a new foundry, only this time, the chamber was sized to fit a coil of 1/4" copper tubing around a 2" central pipe which extended above the top of the foundry as an exhaust stack. I decided to fill the central pipe with charcoal briquettes. A tuyere of about an inch diameter ID pipe entered the bottom of the combustion chamber/pipe stack for forced air-in via a small high speed fan. The coils were protected from the direct flame of the combustion chamber but surrounded by 4" of fireclay/sand/vermiculite insulating lining mix. As an experiment without a force pump, I hooked the coil up to a needle valve in line with house water pressure (about 40 lbs.). I thought I might be able to possibly get 40 lbs. of steam pressure before the feed water was blocked and since my turbine had spun on 30 lbs. of compressed air, I might see some rotation. This was an admittedly crude setup, but I wanted to see whether it would work at a minimum level -- to decide whether it was worthwhile to pursue further. I fired the rig up, and after a few minutes did see steam issuing from the turbine exhaust. The rotor turned rather sheepishly and a trickle of water also exhausted the port. I couldn't adjust the feed water to get consistent steam. It was either running dry or dousing the rotor. That was about it. It was disappointing, but not discouraging, and as in any failure, provides insights into the practical needs of a successful boiler. These are no doubt conclusions others might have pointed out in advance, but you never know until you do it yourself. They are: 1.) accurate feed pressure and volume adjustment is essential to the running of a flash boiler. Much more critical than a conventional boiler feed. Feed metering is THE problem for flash boilers: feed must follow steam requirements of the turbine.. 2.) wet steam of marginal heat content will condense inside the turbine preventing spin-up 3.) steam should exhaust without condensing. 4.) a massive conductive turbine housing like mine (thick cast aluminum) will act as a condenser. Conventional steam engines used wood lagging (insulation) around steam cylinders to retard condensation 5.) I needed a larger combustion chamber. The small amount of fuel was burnt too quickly and a column of ash retarded heat development 6.) I needed better heat transfer to the coils. The protective pipe housing was too protective -- too thick. Oxide discoloration indicated that the heat was highly localized, rather than supplying the full length of the tube and coils. 7.) I needed higher pressure in feed and steam output. Enough surplus to prevent condensation in the engine. This would lead to some inefficiency, which would depend on the ratio of the minimum required exhaust pressure/temp to the total drop from input. As I said I'm not discouraged by the results, and I certainly believe that such a blast furnace/solid fueled flash boiler configuration could work on a demonstration engine -- if the feed design and combustion chamber proportions were properly worked out. On the positive side, the furnace's forced air input may yield better combustion efficiencies than older style atmospheric flash boilers, and may reduce emissions because of the extremely high heat, and controlled excess air. I also believe that there are inherent advantages in this configuration because of the massive insulation and small boiler coil volume -- in this case I hoped that if it occurred, a 1/4" diameter tube blow-out would be minor, contained in the furnace, and directed, if anywhere, up the stack. The biggest problem of steam adoption is the inherent danger of contained pressure in a large vessel. If we can get past this, then small solid fueled generators may be viable. The final advantage is that this is a very simple design to build and experiment with by comparison with other boilers, and the fuel is considerably safer than gasoline or propane (the usual model engine choices) and easily extinguished with water. Best Regards, Steve Redmond Website: www.sredmond.com All the best steve a widely held belief is not necessarily a fact |
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| davef Guru Joined: 14/05/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 499 |
Now you got me diverted on boats. That comes after the house! Found a site with plans but couldn't really find anything that said, "yes build me". I'll just keep a lookout for interesting topics. Cheers, Dave |
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| nofear Newbie Joined: 20/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 11 |
Hi Dave, yeah the steamboat option looks pretty damn cool to me. Toyed with the idea of building the boat and making a quick connect so that I could have a both a boat and a portable powerplant, but I just know I'll have trouble convincing the war office. cheers steve a widely held belief is not necessarily a fact |
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| nofear Newbie Joined: 20/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 11 |
For those looking for engines in various sizes for sale ex U.K, and complete packages for "electrification", this website link may get the mouth watering. prices in USD look rather attractive. How about $4K USD for a 5hp single cyl steam with boiler and 3kva generator? Closer inspection reveals that the engines are actually manufactured in India... direct contact details listed. www.steamcar.net/steam-engine-for-sale.htm cheers steve a widely held belief is not necessarily a fact |
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| davef Guru Joined: 14/05/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 499 |
Steve, I can get to www.steamcar.net but not steam-engine-for-sale.htm On this site I did find an interesting article here: http://www.steamcar.net/jakuba-2.html Dave |
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| nofear Newbie Joined: 20/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 11 |
HI Dave, yep if you go to the steamcar website and click on "For sale" in left hand menu, then scrol down thru the cars for sale until you get to "new steam engines for sale" and click on the link there, you will find pics, specs and prices for these outfits from India. If you go to the tinypower website, and click on his 'article" link there are some interesting thoughts on cheaply solving India's needs for elec and small enterprise. The 5hp steam engine/ 3kva generator package has a boiler of 45sqft so it becomes eempt from costly boiler inspection /regs etc for home use. the boiler is yarrow type and tested to 300lbs and set to run at 150psi. cheers steve a widely held belief is not necessarily a fact |
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| davef Guru Joined: 14/05/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 499 |
Steve, Got it that time. Filed away for future reference. Cheers, Dave |
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