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Forum Index : Solar : Australian Standards and DIY solar install
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Technophiliac Regular Member Joined: 18/12/2020 Location: New ZealandPosts: 92
Posted: 04:26am 02 Nov 2021
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I've been considering the issues around what we are apparently allowed to do. Not sure how it is in Australia, here in New Zealand we now have had a climate emergency declared by the Government.
What's an emergency? In my book if there is, for another example, a fire that is also an emergency, you run and do what you think is best. It might involve hosing the fire with water.
For a fire the (generally) justifiable remedy is aiming a hose at the fire base.
So...what's a justifiable remedy for a climate emergency?
To me my hose is solar panels and wind turbines, and the necessaries to make them run in an emergency basis.
Surely necessaries derived from emergencies trump any routine conservative rules.
So Inspector... what were you saying?Davo, Wellington. You can have it perfect, on time, and at the best price. Choose any two.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 05:42am 02 Nov 2021
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I like your way of thinking!
While many will argue rules and regs are to protect people( Mainly preserve idiots that we don't need around anyway) it's also clear to anyone with a functioning brain cell that " safety" is milked for all it's worth for profit and gain rather than the protection of people as made out. I have zero reservation these rules and changes are exactly and precisely that.
I don't have any regard for compliance with stupid and ineffective rules and regulations. What I do puts no one else in harm or danger and if I get BBQ'd doing something, My tough luck. It's not like Qualified people Never get zapped or injured and they certainly can't be trusted to do proper job. I'm sure some can but to deny the amount of dodgy "qualified " people out there is very ignorant.
From what I have seen the knowledge and experience of off grid on places like this with amateurs would outweigh that of qualified people in very large areas.
I think there are a LOT of ulterior motives going on with things ATM far more sinister than just making maximum profits. If 10% of the things I read and see happening lead to what is suggested, we are going to be in for a very bad time in the next 12 Months let alone beyond.
The offgridders and those Like Tony may be the only ones with the lights still On. And of course Jacinda whom will no doubt have a Diesel Generator Running.
Far as I am concerned, the only emergency is to get some semblance of common-sense leadership back into the western world.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 06:18am 02 Nov 2021
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Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 06:56am 02 Nov 2021
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At the moment I have 6Kw of panels, a 5Kw inverter and 6Kwh of battery storage.
Two 610Ah 48v fork lift batteries will give something like 61Kwh storage, probably a lot more than that as the discharge rate will be very low, not the eight hour (working shift) to full discharge they are nominally rated at.
Nothing special about how its all set up, just panels, solar controller, and battery.
Problem with running a put-put 24hrs is noise and constant refueling. And you have to run the beast even to run a single 50 watt reading lamp. Battery + put-put, or battery + solar or wind or hydro makes more sense to me.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 07:53am 02 Nov 2021
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I was looking at some batteries for sale and saw some EV Packs for toyotas and others. Not sure what the capacity's are but the voltages are pretty high. Maybe these could be an alternative to consider? Might give you the voltage you want without the over capacity... unless that is what you want.
Agree about the generator and think a battery pack for those smaller loads and recharging is best also.
I spotted some 150 AH 12v battery's for sale that look like they have come from a UPS battery bank. They seem to be going pretty cheap but are at least 90 min across the other side of the city from me. Nightmare Drive but If the seller gets back and they are still available, I might go get 4 of them tomorrow. Actually I might get a dozen. Could probably sell them out here and make a few bucks on them. Dozen would make a Reasonable Battery pack for one day anyhow.
Not sure what I would run with them. Most of what we have is either very small or very large draw. Spose I could run the outside Fridge and the Bio-cycle for a start. I'll have to see what the configuration is and if the inverter I have in mind can backfeed.
If only I had a Crystal ball to see the future....
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 08:09am 02 Nov 2021
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I like the look of fully reconditioned fork lift batteries. Five year pro-rata warranty, and if one cell craps out, its possible to buy an exact replacement.
My objection to any type of modular twelve volt battery, is that if one cell dies, you have to toss out the other five as well. That can get expensive for the larger size batteries.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 08:31am 02 Nov 2021
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I know you understand discharge different to I do but I'm pretty sure Fork packs are rated at a 6 Hr rate rather than what I see with most LA at least being 20 hrs. I think this makes a BIG difference to the rated capacity.
With the capacity you will have, I think you can pretty much pump all your solar will give into the things although I'm pretty sure from what you have said before your discharge will be minimal most days and you will still probably be topped up by 9am on good days. Bad days might take all day. I think you are right in that a generator probably won't ever be needed with the input you have and the small draw on them which from memory will only be a 3-5 Kwh at night. Winter generation from your panels should give you around 10 Kwh day and summer around 30. Add to that maybe another 10+ AH capacity from the discharge rate you will have and I don't think you are going to have much need for grid connection at all.
Will be interesting to see what the maintence will be. From people I have spoken to if the things are set up right on the charger they use very little water in this application.
Are you getting new Batteries Tony or certified used ones?
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 08:39am 02 Nov 2021
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That makes a lot of sense.
From what I have seen the fork batteries seem to be standard sizing and interchangeable for a Certain AH rating.
I saw a Vid the other day where the guy got a set of fork batteries for his offgrid MH system. He got them all separate and then laid them out in a wide, double row instead of having them in the steel shells they are normally packaged in. This way he was able to lay them out himself ( young man) in his shed that took up the least space under a bench.
He also commented if he got a bad or lazy cell at worst he had to move one other cell to remove and replace it.
I wonder how these things are lifted? Must be by the terminals?
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 09:09am 02 Nov 2021
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The industry standard for almost all general purpose batteries is a ten hour discharge rate down to some specified voltage.
Fork lift batteries are different, the usual usage pattern is an eight hour working shift with a sixteen hour recharge. You could be right, it may be six hours, I have been out of the commercial battery game for a very long time.
The measured capacity increases a lot with longer discharge at a much lower rate, particularly for lead acid.
As you say, there are industry standard sizes, and the fork lift manufacturers build their steel battery boxes around that. Lead is heavy and fragile and the batteries are built very strong as fork lifts have hard wheels and no suspension. The batteries see a lot of shock from driving over very uneven concrete. Lifting cells by the terminals should be o/k, there is really no other practical way to do it.
The usual way to install stationary batteries is on heavy wooden shelving. I may look into that as a possibility to save space once I actually have a battery. Wood is better for a couple of reasons, its an insulator, and it does not corrode.Cheers, Tony.
InPhase Senior Member Joined: 15/12/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 178
Posted: 11:54am 02 Nov 2021
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One thing to keep in mind about UPS batteries is that many of them are "float duty", meaning that they're intended to spend most of their life just floating. They are not designed to output a current for very long. They have thin plates like an automotive battery and won't last very long as a power source other than in short emergency applications.
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 512
Posted: 10:07pm 02 Nov 2021
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my forklift battery was tested at the " 5 hour rate" that is ceil's standard... was about 160 amp for 5 hours by memory ( could be wrong, been a while) they definitely cop a flogging in there usual life... solar is REALLY easy on em... mine came as seperate 2v cells so I just put it together as I needed.. my first " pack " came in a steel box which I cut open and separated the cells to orientate to my desire...
as I've said before, in the 12 months ive had this " new pack " I've " watered " it 3 times... and I like to have a higher end charge voltage to keep the acid " turned over " ( avoid stratification) ... honestly, would never look back on them, been really happy with itI think it works !!
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 10:50pm 02 Nov 2021
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That's 800 Ah, a real beast of a battery.
I will probably get the usual steel box. That way it comes with all the links and the watering system complete. However, I may break it down and build some heavy shelving if it will end up being neater and take up less space.
Also need some advice on cell equalisation. I know its necessary, but have no clue as to how often it really needs to be done.Cheers, Tony.
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 512
Posted: 02:51am 03 Nov 2021
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including the 2 other " packs " its more 1100ah ... personally, Ive never bothered in the last 8 years... and ive only replaced my first forklift pack 12 months ago, my first was 2nd hand from a unknown place ( brought online) it lasted me about 5 odd years of that 8... What I do is ive " increased " the top voltage time to make sure each cell has had its saturation charge ... Ive never bothered with float ... but I do pull 30-40 % out of it most nights... I go with what Oztules said years ago, you gotta work wet lead acid, it hates " sitting " .. and has worked for me ..
but i would ask the place you buy it from.. if they reputable they'll know what it needs...I think it works !!
InPhase Senior Member Joined: 15/12/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 178
Posted: 03:34am 03 Nov 2021
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There's a lot of opinions on the timing between equalizations, but physically it needs to happen when the SG drifts further than 0.030 between cells at full charge. By taking periodic readings over a long enough time, I'm sure you would start to see how often your particular use requires it.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 04:08am 03 Nov 2021
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I suspect very light duty solar operation will require more frequent equalization simply because the cells are not being worked very hard. When the time comes, I will have a deep and meaningful conversation with the people that refurbish these batteries.Cheers, Tony.
Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 457
Posted: 09:12pm 03 Nov 2021
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Tony when the new batteries arrive, look up when the stupid standard that limits us to 1Kwhour battery banks came out. Then chuck a bit of dust around and if anyone asks, you put the batteries in before that standard came out. Like I said Standards Australia are in the business of writing standards, that is how they get their money. If you query them on what a clause means they will often not be able to tell you, they say that it is up to the various installation inspectors to interpret them in the way they see fit. So basically it is the old hounds breakfast. Pete
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 09:17pm 03 Nov 2021
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Have to agree Pete. Even going and having a pee probably is illegal in some way.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 11:29pm 03 Nov 2021
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There seems to be, like most things, very differing opinions on what is best for these batteries and the alternate opinions both seem to make sense.
Raises a question in my mind however....
In a case like Tonys where the discharge would be very low relative to the packs capacity, what is the best procedure? It would take maybe 4-5 Days for him to get them to say 50% DOD. If this is exercising them sufficiently ( or even discharging for 2 Days) is this not affecting longevity by having them sit round that long in a partially discharged state before recharging which would be considered a Cycle?
I was of the opinion that the less you discharge an LA battery and the sooner you recharge it the better. I have read on the manufacturers site that a discharge ( any discharge) then a recharge is a Cycle and cycles seem to be the significant determination of longevity.
If this is the case, I can well see that taking out 5 Kwh and recharging may be " wasting" the cycles. The question then would be, What DOD is Optimal and what is the maximum time frame one should wait before Recharging? I take it time Discharged is a consideration or is sitting them round above a certain DOD OK?
Does the " exercising" only have to be done once a week or once a month and again, what's the preferred DOD to do this and how long should one allow the batts to sit in a discharged state?
This also brings up another thought.... If one is not going to recharge daily, what does one do with the solar power being generated?
I believe Tony has Gas hot water so maybe an electric, pre heated tank that runs into the gas heater may put that extra power to use? The warmer the water going into the gas heater the less gas it will need to get it up to temp.
For the solar Tony has and what from memory is his very low power consumption, I can well see him having excess power 6 or so months of the year.
For days of light use, the question would remain, do you keep the things topped up or do you allow them to be pulled down and how far and for how long before recharging?
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 12:06am 04 Nov 2021
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I plan to keep them up at a fairly high voltage, which I should be able to do even in winter. An occasional heavy discharge say 150 amps over a few minutes would be good for it, as well as the occasional equalization charge.
I have an old Telecom battery discharge tester load. That was designed to run at up to 500+ amps continuously from a 50 volt telephone exchange battery. I pulled it to bits many years ago it was so large, but still have the massive resistors, meter and current shunt from it.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 12:14am 04 Nov 2021
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No, Not as long as you are licenced/ Qualified, have done the safety Course, are a member of the relevant industry association, Licenced by the EPA, a member of the union and registered with the local Council and state water board. You will need a Disaster and Covid safety plan in place along with a suitable spill kit and wear the proper PPE while conducting your discharges.
A copy of the relevant standards must be kept on site at all time and available for inspection by all users of your bathroom. You can purchase the document from Strandeds Oztralia for $5621.68+ GST and $117 Delivery to your email address.
For significant works such as after a big Night on the turps or holding off to see the end of the Movie, you will just need to put in and have an approved DA from your local Council. This will involve a small fee averaging around $220. You must have this before proceeding or heavy fines may apply. Any exterior relief works will need written permission from all adjoining neighbours and an environmental Impact study conducted for each occasion.
From then on You will just need your facilities inspected yearly and a certificate of Compliance issued. You may then complete your ablutions within the allowed hours and keep a log book of your dewatering which you will be required to present to any inspector or authorised person on demand.
If you wish to use a Public Facility, You will need to have a negative Convid test within the last 3 days, Check in with the QR code, Be double PoXXXed and up to date with your 5th booster shot and be wearing a mask. You are not permitted to stand up and tinkle so please remain seated at all times during your Visit and do not walk around the Cubicle and maintain anti social distancing from all other pee'ers. As troughs have no seating facilities and standing is not permitted at this time, all stalls are closed until further notice or until we hit 107% Poisonation.
These simple provisions met, you are free to squirt away within the rules, regulations and daily allowances.
Please see our Current requirements and regulations if you are wanting to undertake the emissions of Number 2's which are NOT covered in these standards but available seperately.
See, Nothing to it and please stop spreading Vicious Rumours that the requirements and standards are overbearing and Unnecessary or strictly for the sake of profitability.
We are here to help and make things as easy for you as possible while providing the highest customer service levels.
It's all for your own safety and that of the greater Community.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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