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Davo99
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Posted: 09:59pm 06 Jul 2021

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bob.steel said
Discharge the cell ,any size ,down to 2.5 volta any way you like then put your charger on it and watch. Initially it will take the maximum you set in current and that is why it must be current limited. Say a 20 amp hour lithium ion cell as an example . Set the max current to 10 amps. (.5C) set the voltage push to 4.2 volts and switch on.

Initially it will draw 10 amps. Not for long though ,perhaps 30 to 60 seconds. Then the current will fall under the 10 amps and continue to fall until way way along the hours line it will get down to say 200mA. Call it a day at that and call it charged . It will be at about 4.0 volts and putting more in will not add much in useable energy.

I have no experience with lipos other than using hem in equipment they were installed in. Nothing with building battery packs and charge/ Discharging them.

What you say fly's in the face of about everything I have read of them. Hardly surprising though given I do know about LA and the facts of those batteries are completely misconstrued as well.

Seems so many people will say anything to prove their position is right.
What I have read repeatedly is with charging the Lipo packs you just set them at whatever rate up to C1 and they will charge at that rate till they hit end voltage and you then turn them off. Matter of fact, the common folklore touts this as an advantage as you don't need " Complicated" chargers that back off once the battery hits 80% Like you do with LA and therefore the Lipos will charge in a fraction of the time LA will. May be true to a degree but then I also read it is extremely wise if not essential to have a BMS so what the imagined difference is I don't know.

Obviously not the case as made out and as you quite rightly say, Most people don't have a clue . Won't stop them parroting everything they ready though to push their vested interests. I have never denied Lipo has a lot of advantages but I don't know why the proponents have to outright lie and exaggerate the the facts.

They are an inanimate object, they are what they are, that's it.

The other thing I read every singe time in a most discussions with house hold batteries is that lithium will become cheaper. I find that a laughable statement. They have already had their initial price drop from when they were a new technology and to think they would keep endlessly becoming cheaper, usually under the flawed assumption that increased production is the only cost factor, is ridiculous.
I point out that LA has been around many decades, are made by the 10's of Millions in the automotive sector alone but every time I go to buy one they have gone UP not down in price so why should Lipo be different.

Of course most suggesting this cheaper fantasy overlook the basic fact that any product in High demand and limited availability is only going to go up or maintain price, not go down. Supply and demand which the real world operates on in manufacturing is the controlling force not Ignorant Opinions trying to push a cause.

Everything I read from real worlds sources says Lipo production can't keep up with demand and they want to build more production facilitates but are also hitting problems with supply of raw materials. Only a few relatively politically unstable countries with questionable labour and environmental practices in the refining of the materials produce the raw product so not like it's available in unlimited supply.

Tesla power walls went up twice last year so increased production certainly wasn't making them any cheaper.

Lipo certainly have their advantages but cost over LA is not one of them and I can't see it really being one in the real world despite what many make out.

Revlac

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Posted: 10:31am 24 Oct 2021

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I guess Its time for an update.

After the first few attempts at charging appeared to have some effect on deflating the cells, they charged a little and then self discharged till completely flat, generating heat in the process.

The next attempt was the capacitor shock treatment......just experimental to start with.

The packs are divided into a set of 3, so working with one pack in my spare time,I set the battery charger to 17v connected to telephone wire between the charger and a 34000uH 40VDC capacitor, with some (sacrificial) copper wire connected to one cell in the pack.
Charged up the cap and then SPLAT the wire onto the connector on the cap (went to the battery terminal on the others), for about one second (any longer and the wires would produce too much smoke), Did this a few times then let it sit over night and that cell was holding .4volts.
I did the rest of them with about 9 dumps from the capacitor and the cells when to about .5 to .8volts each, left for a few days and checked the voltage, all of them were showing some voltage still, so charged them as a pack to about 2.5v each, left them sit for a few days and checked again, voltage varied a bit over all of them, but 2 cells where much better than the others, after this it looked obvious that the other cells need a bit more help......I give all the cells another 9 hits (a total of 18 hits) each and then charged them some more up to 2.8v each and left them sit, of course they dropped back a little due to resistance.

Charged the pack again to a little higher voltage and they are holding quite well, still not at full charge yet, next it was time to see if the same procedure works with the rest of the cell"s

I hadn't taken any proper power reading's up until now as it was experimental to see what happens.

With a battery charger that can supply large amperage and a clamp meter over the wire going to the cell, the first zap measured about 50Amp as it is almost a dead short, just to confirm that, the amp meter needle on the battery charger went past 40Amp and hit the stopper.

The next zap (measured on the clamp meter) was about 45A then next was 40A and so on as the resistance of the cell increased.

The last pack of cell's, I only give them 9 dumps from the capacitor & charger, just to see if the results would differ.
As it turns out, the last pack has a will not charge as high or fast as the others.

After leaving all the cell packs sitting for some time, checked the voltage of each cell to see if the voltage is close enough to parallel wire the lot, so yes they were, wired them together and left them sit for a day to equalise.

After the Cell's Been sitting for a week or so, it was time to put them into the flat pack and connect up the balancer, I had tried charging the cells when connected to flatpack balancer previously, but it was unresponsive, Initially I thought it might want some decent amount of voltage in the cells before it would work......but no, it would not respond with 40v from the battery, and still no response with a pair of solar panels connected to the flatpack terminals.

Time for some fault finding, Underside of the balancer, can see a row of balance resistor's, couldn't see anything unusual.

More checking and probing around on the common port under over voltage MOSFET board, found a shorted diode on the power supply section, this took out the PTC fuse that supplied that section.
It was a bugger to trace this thing, there is a middle layer in the pcb that carries the positive power.

Could not find information on this diode, so replaced in with another smd diode of similar size....well it all fired up when connected to the batteries, looks promising, after about an hour all lights are out on the circuit boards, bugger.
Checked and found the diode shorted again, (I do not have any SMD stuff around, just grabbed something from old unused circuit boards) replaced it with another different one that was a little larger looking but unknown value, soldered it in, connected power and the diode failed immediately, something else may be wrong?
Just get a 1n4004 bend&cut the legs and solder that in place...it will fit.

Ok it now works with that diode in place and no heat on components, still don't think its doing what it should, some of the LED's are not as bright as the rest, for what ever reason.
The 2 LED's on this board indicate the charge and discharge mosfets low voltage cut off, one led will go out, the other will be off when voltage goes high....normal operation.....what is not normal is that either of them will switch off with know reason at all that I am aware of, started at 48.4 I had the inverter running off it for a short time, and it just cut power to the inverter at 48v, could be SOC setting that is not working or setup.

Charging the flatpack the row of LED's indicate the cells that have a higher voltage than others and are in the process of lowering the voltage of those cells, This section appears to be functioning normally.....enough to burn a finger on those resistors after a short time.

Another issue or several....charge will often cut out and restart for no apparent reason, don't what to blowup an inverter connected to it when that happens.
When the (cells are full) charge exceeds what the balances can handle it cut the input power.....as it should, however the fault led comes on and shrieking noisy buzzer starts up and as yet, will not turn off without actually removing the positive power wire.

What we could do is put an external switch on this positive wire to either reset when this fault occurs, or it will also be used to turn the power off to the unit, as there is no other way to turn it off.
The large black wire is negative power in and out of the battery, what we could do here is splice a heavy wire into that and run that to an inverter or appliance or whatever, to avoid all the strange on off behaviour, however this would bypass the low voltage cutout rendering it useless....use an external low voltage cutout, should do the job.
For charging, the normal ports (outlets) should be used, this will still use the battery protection and work in its normal way...Normal? Whats that?

The reason for this flatpack's behaviour, with its power on off on trickery, could be that the flatpack in supposed to have a control unit connected to it, that connects to net where setting and commissioning of the system is performed, also according to the manual the power led should flash and the button should put the flatpack into sleep mode when pressed for a few seconds, but NO it wont do that.
These are not build to be stand alone, as far as I can workout.

The user manual "sonnen-943-user-manual.pdf" has some info in it, but I see this.

Not sure what was the cause of the flat cells, could have been left sitting on the shelf too long and discharged till completely flat, or some fault on the control boards.

So after all this, giving these cells some shock treatment has revived all of them, but still many unknowns, they have swollen back up a little (wouldn't be noticed with cylindrical cells), the capacity is unknown although I did put in over 400Wh into each of the 3 packs (about 1.2Kwh overall) there was some time spent charging after that, don't know how much.
The batteries prefer to hang around 3.33 volts each, so just shy of 50volts total, as this is 15 cells instead of the 16 that most others use.
Some cells are different than others, but there is some usable capacity there.
Don't know how long it will work or last, it could improve or it could fail after a few cycles, it might want another ZAP from a capacitor again.
At the beginning nothing was working at all, So I think it was worth trying this method out.

Cheers Aaron
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brucedownunder2
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Posted: 12:08am 27 Oct 2021

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Hi Aaron. You certainly are gifted with patience, and ,of course the intelligence to figure out faults ,well done.

Thanks for all your work, maybe one of us will find a home for it...or a boat , that needs an anchor,LOL.

I'm progressing steadily with my inverter, am doing metalwork to fit the DC input switch and the capacitor soak function.

So, have fun with the flatpack,

Bruce

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Davo99
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Posted: 12:51am 27 Oct 2021

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brucedownunder2 said
Thanks for all your work, maybe one of us will find a home for it...or a boat , that needs an anchor,LOL.

I believe one ( or more) of these Lipo type chemistry's can also go off in spectacular fashion if they get wet or have water ingress.

Tossing it overboard and getting Boiling seas reaction may be fun but don't think it would do the Fish population a lot of good!

Revlac

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Posted: 02:25am 27 Oct 2021

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Quote I believe one ( or more) of these Lipo type chemistry's can also go off in spectacular fashion if they get wet or have water ingress.

I had a discarded, but new 40v Li battery (think it was a Ryobi 40v battery), it was a bunch of 2.2Ah 18680's, I divided it into 2, so I could use them as 20V packs, left one sitting at the edge of the table outside where I was working, days later went out to get it!...wasn't there, thought I must have shifted it.

A few days later the Stainless steel bucket of watered down molasses near the table had a good amount of bubbles and foam in it, didn't think much of it at the time, later on I needed the bucket, tipped it out and found the 20v battery with a good amount of electrolysis eating through the cells, Turns out It was the birds (little green Lorikeet's) playing with it and knocked it off the table.

On the Spectacular scale, I give it a 1 out of 10.

Cheers Aaron
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brucedownunder2
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Posted: 04:39am 27 Oct 2021

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Rest assured, Dave99, as Aaron or myself would never throw batteries into ponds.creeks , dams, or the salt seawater areas...

Looks like I'll have to take care when I'm posting such sensitive suggestions .

Bruce,just a dumb busboy.

Bushboy

Revlac

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Posted: 04:56am 27 Oct 2021

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Not to worry, It reminds me of some electro fishing I did in a small dam, used probes.
Edited 2021-10-27 14:57 by Revlac

Cheers Aaron
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bob.steel
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Joined: 27/02/2020
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Posted: 08:09pm 04 Feb 2022

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Murphy's friend said Hi Bruce,
While I have not taken apart my new Li-ion battery pack cells I did open a shortened LYP cell (200Ah). I assume the Li-ion type is similar with different chemical inside.Well I have

Basically its constructed like a very large capacitor (and I understand it works in a similar way, eg. no chemical reaction in an electrolyte).The electrolyte is Ethelene carbonate and "ions" flow through the separator

There are two different, very thin, foil type 'plates', one is aluminium and the other copper. These are coated with the special 'stuff' and are separated by a very thin plastic sheet.The copper sheet is covered in a carbon wash,The alluminium sheet has a Lithium coating . Both very thin.

The plates are each connected to its terminal on the top, I think there were nearly one hundred 'plates' of each variety. There are no wires inside unless the cell has an inbuilt balancer.Various types resembling jelly rolls in normal cells but some have separate plates .Usually each plate is connected by a "Tab" on its top to one terminal or the other

The 'plates' are only as big as the cell outline but the plastic separator zig zags between the alternating 'plates' and is many many meters long.Varies

There was no liquid inside the cell I opened but the plastic separator sheet felt wet and smelt funny. It also started to smoke when I bundled it into the rubbish bin, I guess it reacted with oxygen in the air. Threw it on the lawn until it had dried out.That was the plates shorting only . The electrolyte evaporates very quickly and the alloy plate will turn to dust after a few hours

If you want a better explanation how it works just google it, there are some very good texts on this subject.

My new Li-ion cells are tightly strapped into 4 cell packs with aluminium endplates to prevent bulging.The bulging is caused by excess heat. Its only met if you overheat the plates by too high a discharge . You cant charge them high enough to do that. The electrolyte gasses and if the sides are restrained the gas finds a way up to the top and electolyte flows back over the hot spot .If foil packs all you can do is prick the foil ,let the as out and immediately dab some rtv silicon on the pin hole .In LFP i have not yet seen an expanded cell like that that has actually made the built in vent open. But then I am careful to limit my discharge rate to 50% of C.
The LYP cells require one to come up with one's own strapping method and, if not done very well, will swell in the middle too.I think you mean LFP

Edited 2022-02-05 06:13 by bob.steel

bob.steel
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Posted: 08:24pm 04 Feb 2022

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pd-- said The " plastic sealed packets " pouch cells are best sent of to the recycle center.
There are toxic chemicals in the cells so opening them is not recommended.By who?
Trying to charge them is not a good ideaWhy not . I do and I have them pin pricked and resealed and working perfectly after 5 years . Comments like this annoy me because all those invested reserves would be wasted into landfill if people did what you suggest and that approach is killing the world . Fix the damn things
they are likely to continue to swell until they popNah fantasy really
the gas and liquid inside is flammable and very toxic when burnt. Not really the ethelene carbonate is flamable but must be strongly heated up to get there . Everything else burns if you get it hot enough! This runaway ignition is mostly a myth . Some were trying to charge cells above their required limit.

You can contact the manufacture and se what price they will charge for new cells
or take a look on Alibaba

The BANG is a concern there may be damage to the electronics

I see you are a newbee .
This is mostly rubbish and should be withdrawn or at least strongly edited . Its gossip spreading .

bob.steel
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Posted: 08:32pm 04 Feb 2022

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brucedownunder2 said Thank You , Murphy,friend,(and mine now) and Nickskethisniks (wow, what a name !).

anyhow, thanks very much for the simple explanation of how they work . I think I gathered that the salient point is the "closeness" of the "plates' , so mine are badly swollen and therefore may never be recoverable. Forget that . Try

Can I buy replacements and would they be worth the gamble or expense ?.See below

I did apply , very carefully, my 48v battery just by touching the Anderson shells together, BANG. yes, melted the POS terminal . no damage.If you melted a terminal you have heaps of power there . Think of an arc welder It uses 60 volts DC up and it melts steel on contact with the rod . You just did that!

Funny thing , 0 volts on my meter before the experiment, then after a micro-second and the BANG, I read something like 0.048 volts ,later back to 0.

maybe this was the capacitor effect ???.I'm guessing you have a problem in the connecting devices ,perhaps the BMS is stuffed?

Anyhow, the other idea was a controlled charge , like a gradual increase in charge to see if it really is a dead short or just wanting a huge input til it settles down ????. (bruce is thinking out aloud).Put your multimeter across the inner cell terminals to check the real voltage and charge across them if needed . Your BMS will be dead as its switched off for some reason . One cell may be too high , One may be too low, the temp function may be playing up if it has one. All common problems

Thanks for the discussion, luv this forum.

Bruce

bob.steel
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Posted: 08:36pm 04 Feb 2022

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Davo99 said I had one of those Lipo jumper packs.
Was very good and unbelievably powerful and it got a lot of use and I did try to look after it.

One day when trying to start the ute, the thing started smoking a little then obviously had a runaway. I managed to tear it off the battery and hurl it into the yard.
I have NEVER seen anything so compact make so much smoke. I mean it filled the yard and you couldn't see one side to the other. Only other thing I have seen like it is videos of giant smoke bombs on Yt. There was a bit of orange fire and lots of hissing and jet like smoke emanation but the volume of smoke was astounding.

Luckily it was in the morning and the breeze was gentle and took the smoke away but I guarantee the mosquito population took a month to recover.

If you want a bit of entertainment, short that swollen pouch out and toss it making sure you are upwind. Don't be surprised if some rescue aircraft descends thinking it's a distress signal or you are marking an LZ for an insertion team.

I would be very careful where you left the thing and myself would be putting it where it could burn and not matter like in a metal bin outside and away from anything else.
From Videos I have seen these things can also go off in a spectacular fashion if shot so if you want a bit of fun with your bunny gun..... :0)

If you are silly enough to short any battery it will smoke . Why not weld up your car if you are going to do that.

bob.steel
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Posted: 08:47pm 04 Feb 2022

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Revlac said Before attempting to charge this pack I wrapped up the back end with some masking tape to help hold it together.
I tried charging the one that has the black plastic wrap removed, I set the charger to 6v then connected it up turned the charger on and it maxed out at 40Amp for 3 seconds the dropped back. I then gradually increased the voltage as the amps dropped, after about 10 minuets I reached 12v on that pack.

Turned it off and disconnected over night, checked the voltage the next morning and the battery was dead flat, Did the same cycle again the next day and the battery started to hold a little charge of about 1.5v.

Did the same cycle again, this time it was holding over 6v, looks encouraging.
Will do this with the other packs.

These are Lifepo4 pouch cells, LFP.OK so pin prick the pouches flatten them tape them and seal the pinholes with silicon rtv. Good as gold . Now a common cause of swelling is dendrites shorting the insulator at some point inside and the voltage it reads after that can be anywhere . Sounds like you have a good idea of what you are doing so in future try this first .Get a lab power ssupply . Something that can go up to 40 volts ,20 at least . Set the current to max and put a half second burst through the cell. Do it 4 or 5 times 5 secs apart and then try the charger.the dendrites explode and evaporate if you are lucky and it works.
What We think has happened with this Flatpack is that it was left sitting flat (Discharged) for a long time.
An overcharged cell that has swollen up would not flatten out with any recharge.No only excess discharge can cause that.

Now in the photo you can see the masking tape is really slack, what is most surprising is the cells (while charging and left for some time) have sucked back down flat most of the way, was expecting that.Perhaps some gas has condensed but I have never seen that happen on foil packs. Alloy cased cells however do shrink back as you continue to use them if pressure is applied.

While charging this pack I did check every cell often to make sure none of then where going over voltage, it was nice to see all cells in this group where charging and voltage was equal on each cell.

Will have to peel open the cover on the end of the other 2 packs to check the while charging, see if they do the same thing, there is a small chance that they might might all charge up and work, will take some time to go through this process, but definitely worth trying.
Thanks Bruce for letting Me work on this.

Can't say for certain that all this will work, too early to tell, there is also the issue of high resistance that could make the battery difficult to use, will wait and see what happens...

I doubt the resistance will be affected unless its dendrites.

bob.steel
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Posted: 08:54pm 04 Feb 2022

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Davo99 said

brucedownunder2 said
Thanks for all your work, maybe one of us will find a home for it...or a boat , that needs an anchor,LOL.

I don't know why you insist on posting this rubbish . Its gossip and wowserism dave.

Water dilutes ethylene carbonate . There is no reaction it just takes longer to evaporate . Toss any battery in water and it will likely discharge as and if the terminals are shorted ,like in salt water perhaps ,but nothing you will notice.

bob.steel
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Posted: 09:08pm 04 Feb 2022

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Bugger . This silly no edit rule catches me every time . Why the hell do that Admin?
I wanted to go back and remove the duplicated pictures but can't.Your editor is the worst I have seen.It needs fixing.

Forgive my enthusiasm fellas.
I just came across this topic again and wanted to share something with you but started reading and saw the comments needed correcting . Did not see I had started correcting it before .

Anyway News

First go to lfp for really good info on LFP /LiFePo4 batteries and

On Ebay , States and Australia is a seller called Digi-Marker.
Their 200 Ah 12 volt battery for instance sells for about $800 AUD
That battery has Alloy Prismatics in it . All their other models below that have cylindrical cells made by them of about 136 mm by 33.5 mm .

They are cheap and directly price comparable to lead acid stuff NOW. 10 years at least life and 100% discharge without damage !

On that site above I have pulled most of the models apart to verify the truth of their claims and they have checked out.

No excuse now to change over when your next set of lead batteries destroys itself.
Cheers.
Edited 2022-02-05 07:19 by bob.steel

noneyabussiness
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Posted: 07:56am 05 Feb 2022

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ok, lets get this straight.. you say they are " comparable " with lead acid on a stationary system..

i just purchased a 2nd hand 48v 700ah forklift battery from CEIL Australia for $5600 delivered to my door... with test papers and warranty...

to get the same capacity from your lipo cells by your maths (800ah) would cost me $12800, then bms etc on top...

not really " comparable "... lipo is great, but in this instance its not viable ... I'll easily get 20 years out of these cells, they are extremely hardy for forklifts and are rated at 5 hr rate... but each to their own

I think it works !!

Revlac

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Posted: 10:16am 05 Feb 2022

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SECOND HAND FLA batteries COMPARED to NEW price Lipo Batteries? last I looked it was $11,000 to $16,000 PLUS Delivery for new 750AH lead batteries.
New price for either is not a viable option, Most of us would go for the cheaper option, no point in spending big $$$ depending on circumstances.

Cheers Aaron
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noneyabussiness
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Posted: 07:19pm 05 Feb 2022

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all i was saying is exactly that, unnecessarily expensive when FLA CAN be loads cheaper and just as reliable, heck for solar my personal experience is they are wayyyy more forgiving... yes i will concede that " new " may be " comparable " but it is unnecessary when there are far better / cheaper options...

as many on here have come to experience, lipo batteries can be a right pain and don't live up to the hype with longevity and dod...

I think it works !!

Warpspeed
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Posted: 08:31pm 05 Feb 2022

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I plan to get a rebuilt and reconditioned and warrantied battery from Ceil very soon.
Thirty to thirty five Kwh storage is vastly more than I really need, but the capacity can gradually fall away over the years, and it will probably last longer than me anyway.

Cheers, �Tony.

Murphy's friend

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Posted: 05:40am 06 Feb 2022

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bob.steel said

Murphy's friend said

The LYP cells require one to come up with one's own strapping method and, if not done very well, will swell in the middle too.I think you mean LFP

No, its *LYP*, look up 'Winston' sells

Davo99
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Posted: 07:31am 06 Feb 2022

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noneyabussiness said ok, lets get this straight.. you say they are " comparable " with lead acid on a stationary system..

I'm on an off grid forum and you can't even Mention LA or traction batteries or 20 tryhards will just down your throat and call you an idiot for even thinking of them and then make up every lie and talk endless crap to make Lipo seem beyond perfect and LA beyond useless.

I don't know what the Obsession many have with Lipo these days.

I keep hearing the " Lipo is cheaper story but I have Challenged a Number of people now to show me where they can get lipo, in Australia from a bricks and mortar store Cheaper than the same usable capacity in Traction batteries.

Of course the excuses and Insults are plentiful but the answer to the question remains unanswered.

I can't remember seeing anything people were so utterly obsessed with pushing the barrow for and getting so upset if people should have a Differing opinion. The lies alone to champion their position are incredible. Even when you link them to manufacturers information they just dismiss anything that is no complimentary to what they want to believe and talk opinion which they can never back up a a law of the universe.

It's worse than religion or politics.
If you prefer Lithium, great, no skin off my nose what you use. Likewise, If I prefer LA, why are others getting their panty's in such a twist? Does not affect them one little bit.

I just don't get why these people are so hung up on inanimate objects like batteries and why they are so hell bent on pushing their proclivities on everyone else??

BTW mate, you do know according to these tryhards on this other forum I look at and some others I have seen, Your La pack is only going to last 3 years tops, You will be maintaining it 12 hours a day and if you discharge it any more than 20% it will be ruined. Trust them, they know cause they read the same thing 3 Times on the net so it has to be inarguable Fact!

Love to see some pics and a write up when you have it set up mate.
How many panels and what size are you hooking up with it?

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