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Forum Index : Solar : 48volt flat packs
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Revlac Guru  Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1024 |
I have had plenty of FLA batteries over the years, would have been a few 1000Ah in 48v Telecom battery banks, want to get away from those things now, quite often a cell would drop out over time, keep them charged, add water etc. With a properly managed lithium setup (still more improvements to be done in future) should be maintenance free, setup and forget. A friend of mine (in his late 80's)wanted me to setup a large number of these 18650 cells and build it like mine, I said NO, I knew there was no way he could look after it, (end in smoke and tears) he would need something that would take care of it self. Also, I can't imagine the next generation would even know what to do with FLA....except maybe burn fingers with the acid.  Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| nickskethisniks Guru Joined: 17/10/2017 Location: BelgiumPosts: 458 |
The main reason for me would be state of charge, I don't need to charge my lithium to 100%. With lead acid you should do that quite often to balance and maximize the life. If you have enough solar power then that's not an issue. For me it is, I don't want to put on the generator to much. I like the voltage curve of my lithium battery it's very flat, but also it sucks up every power it gets. In theory for example a 100Ah battery can be charged with 100A. With lead acid that's not the case. Very low internal resistance, it will take the current untill almost charged. The efficiency ah in/out is a lot higher with lithium, yeah you can add panels... but not me. Disadvantages is more complex balancing, but not for me with a electronic hobby. Price of course... |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
That is what I had hoped for. However, several sudden catastrophic cell failures have made Lithium less attractive. That is about $150.00 per year worth of dead cells, which would buy a lot of grid power. Even if there were zero capacity degradation over time, battery storage looks like a financial loser. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
I think it's a matter of horses for courses and what suits each persons prefrances and skill set. I can see the charge rate and partial capacity holding of the Lipos being an advantage to some. Good to get some different insights into things and a better understanding of the pros and cons. I guess the question will be if that were just some Dud cells as a one off or the rest of your pack will continue to degrade at the same rate which would be most unfortunate. My only experience with Lipos is built into other devices. I have never had any of them last what I would say was a reasonable expectation for home battery storage. Most of what I have had in various equipment, some well used, some lightly used is a noticeable degradation in 3 years and pretty much finished by 5 years. My much loved and well travelled Tablet is falling into that very category now. Almost 4 years old and having charging problems and the thing has been well mollycoddled. Daughter took it into electronics shop she works at to have someone look at it and verdict was just the way they go, get a new one. I don't want a new one, I like the one I have and the places it's been with me. I don't know what other peoples expectations are but I would be wanting something to last 10 years with still 80% Min capacity. Anything that's finished useable life in 5 years or less does not fit my requirements regardless of any other features. If the things were at throw away prices, might be different but nothing is at that level at this time. In a previous question I was trying to ascertain if you had got into batteries as a money saver or for other reasons. I have never seen where they can be profitable except in advertising where the numbers are highly suspect if not demonstrable lies. There is always the exception to the rule and a knowledgeable person like yourself would be the one to find and make the most of it. From what I see, Batteries have to be way below the price they are to be worth while. If some are in a position to get them for next to nothing, that's great. I have done it with panels, others may work with or have a source they get get them from new or used that makes them Viable. It's not wether they work or not, just the price one can obtain them for that's the make or break. I sat down and had coffee with a Mate this morning whom owns a business that uses about $1400 worth of power a MONTH. He's asked me to do him a solar setup. He had a guy come round earlier in the week trying to sell him a solar Battery system. Mate knows what I think of batteries so asked me to look at the figures. He'd already looked at them and thought they didn't add up and took me about 2 Min to show him they would cost him double over what he is paying now over their projected lifetime. These sales people seem to work on the principle of baffle them with Bullsh*t to make their products sound worthwhile and show them being a money saver. Looking at friends power bills, unusually they use much more power in summer than winter so this will be ideal for straight solar for him. We were Pontificating if batteries would ever be Viable from a power Co/ Tax POV? Taken to closer to the end game, If Most homes and small businesses had solar and power, what would be the position of the power co? Our bet was they would lobby for some sort of protection/ Tax on batteries and solar equipment to dissuade their use and and degradation of their profits. We find it highly unlikely they are going to sink all this investment into unreliables ( even if it is mainly gubbermint granted money) and then just let everyone have solar and batteries and virtually put them our of business. These are all companies with an obligation to share holders to make a quid so they are not going to let their golden goose wither away away without trying to throw road blocks in the way of that. Like anything else, they probably won't do anything except try to cash in on the market until they see it start eating into their bottom line they they will cry hard done by and unfair and try to stop the downward spiral they are already concerned about. The solar industry has all sorts of crap rules and regulations to protect it's own self interest and nest feathering, I cannot see the power industry not doing everything it can to stop it's profits and corporate greed being eroded. At very least they will be like the water companies that insist if the water main runs past your place you have to pay " access" fees. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I am doing this mainly for fun and as a retirement project. I figured that if my $3.5K battery bank lasted ten years I would probably just about break even, and have the advantage of having some power when the grid goes down. We have had a lot of power outages here, typically three or four a year that last several hours. I like the Lithiums, they charge easily and quickly at a high rate, very little loss of power and self discharge, and no topping up, gassing or or maintenance. But 10% cell failure rate over three years is a bit of a disappointment. I cannot see that I am doing anything wrong in their treatment, I may have simply been unlucky with a bad batch. Running without a battery right now, still trying to decide what to do. If I can pick up a couple of 48v fork lift lead acid batteries at a reasonable cost, I might give that a try. Cheers, Tony. |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
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| Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
Ok just had frugle on 48 volt forklift batteries and yes it was as I thought 2 off 24 volt packs are combined to make a 48 volt pack. Now I did try and ring that link I got off frugle and one would think on Friday at 3.19pm they would answer but just got a meesage ring between 9 and 5 Monday to Friday. Next week I will try and get price for 24 volt packs as I am looking at upgrading the farmhouse to a 48 volt system but for buying the charger to suit either one would have to split the pack or just take out the electronics and let the raw current do the job. I do think 2 off 735AH packs should come under 10K new but just have a think for a minute. Lets say as few of us were going this method so if we did whats called a group buy I reckon atleast a grand could be taken off the price. Something to ponder |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Definitely 48v batteries available: https://www.solidliftparts.com/part/forklift-electric-motors Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Geez you sound like my double! Listers, Veg oil, gasless wire.... Had a lister over 10 years now ( just a 6 Hp roid) and been running veg oil in everything I can for 20. Just built a new Veg oil processor/ drier this week using an improved design I came up with. Ran a 200L batch Thursday and it worked perfect as expected. had the Kubota Mower and tractor running on it off and on for a while. Now I have a new processor they can get a much better diet of it and far less of the evil Dinosaur Juice.... :0) I don't mind the smell of Diesel but I miss that aroma of veg when it's absent. Used gasless wire for as long as I can remember as well and although so many people rubbish it, I have never had a problem with it. Bought my father a New Viper MIG a few months ago but for whatever reason, he couldn't get the hang of the gasless wire although worked fine with me so back to the gas for him. There are definitely ready made 48V forklift packs about and no shortage of them. Most companies will either reconfigure or show you how to reconfigure a pack to any voltage you like. 48V battery pack Look through that sellers listings, they have a range of packs in size and age and pricing. You should be able to get some very good and fresh pack of the configuration you want for under $10K. I have to say I have reservations about your Group buy discount theory. Far as I can see they have no trouble selling these things, they don't have to discount them to move them. That said, I'd certainly put the screws on them to give you a better deal on 2 Packs. Even free delivery might be a worthwhile saving. Batteries are not furniture and I would tend to think the markup was relatively thin but if you don't ask you certainly aren't going to be offered. An upside to LA/ forklift packs is their end of life value. I looked this up some months back and figured that the dead packs are worth 1/4 to 1/3rd the price of a comparable used pack. I think that makes for some cheap storage when taken into account. They seem quite happy to sell packs for solar use and why wouldn't they be? I'm sure stationary solar setups are infinitely less stressed than forklift application and would cause much less problems. You are certainly going for plenty of Reserve power. Is this to cater to your welding / engineering use? With that much battery, it may not be a bad thing to double your solar input. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Sitting here inside as being 42 oC it's a bit warm to do much outside. Went out for a while after lunch but the things I wanted to move are too damn hot to touch and the tractor seat is burning my backside every time I get back on it. It's great having the big AC going keeping the house a Cool 24o ( not that cool but certainly feels nice in comparison!) but there is always the thought in the back of ones mind if the power will go out any time it gets hot. The AC being 3 phase is about the only thing I'm not set up to power off the genny but when this one craps out, I'll definitely be going for a single phase AC or a couple of them. It would be nice to have the reassurance of a battery and total disregard for the weather or the possibility of the grid going down when you want it most. That said, I can remember one outage since being here 3.5 years Which was a winter storm at night)and I think we had 3-4 in the 24 years at the last place. Makes batteries an expensive proposition. I am of the opinion however that the mandate the Gubbermints have both state and Federal for Unreliables to power the grid will make outages more frequent. I predicted that last summer and they seemed minimal although I think the bushfires had a lot to do with reducing the load through taking so many areas out through that. It will be interesting to see how Grids around the place hold up this summer if it turns out to be a hot one. I'm sure if the outages increase or start increasing as I think they will, Batteries and generators will become a hot property. What is frustrating to me is the fact that even with the air going full tilt and the afternoon becoming quite Hazy, I'm still making more than enough power to double what I'm using and still be pushing back to the grid. If the grid falls over, then I'm buggered. I spose I should get serious about looking into a phase converter where I can run a 3 Phase machine off a single phase input. For those that are leaning that way, might pay to get in early with a battery pack before the rush hits.... when it does. I don't think it's an if question but a when. May not be for a few years, having the Crystal ball and knowing when to jump would be the great trick. This time last year we were all concerned about Bushfires, seem pretty minor compared to where we are this year. |
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| Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1024 |
Before now, most of the forklift batteries talked about here, were used batteries and lithium batteries were mostly bought new for offgrid setups. Thinking about this, the occasionally bad cell in any of these battery packs, if out of warranty would have to be considered. the price to replace a 2v 750ah cell is similar to a set of 4 200AH lifep04, NOT Trying to make a price comparison as there is a huge difference in prices and quality from different suppliers The price was based on the first one I found on ErkBay. Obviously most people would get a replacement battery from the supplier they bought the forklift battery from and most likely a better price, they don't advertise the price of a single cell (would have to contact them to find out) or I would have chosen that price to go with. Also with the large 2v FLA, if one cell gives up You can jump the bugger and keep the system up and running, would have to change the charge control settings and keep going. For me, any more than 300Ah isnt worth getting (if at new price) as its mostly sunny and don't need any than 2 days of storage its no big deal to run the geny with a big charger for 45 minuets or so once in a while. There is a lot of variables in this and needs are all different. The same with running a workshop, during the day I only need the batteries to handle surges up to 200A at 48v, I don't need a lot of Battery Ah for that, But I agree Definitely Add more solar panels, I use a lot more power during the day now than I ever did while on grid, run aircons now never did before. Started out as a hobby and just built it up a bit at a time. A new 48V forklift battery of 750Ah, I think I would need it to last 20 years for me just to break even. Looked up some forklift batteries, must have got a little sidetracked, saw a forklift mob using/advertising lithium batteries for there forklifts. Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Anyone know of a similar source of fork lift batteries in Vic ? Cheers, Tony. |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
Well that didn't take long. First couple of hot days and many thousands of people are left without power and for many hours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE3wI76DhbA |
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| Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578 |
https://www.ceilpower.com.au/used-forklift-batteries/ http://batterytechnologies.com.au/product-category/batteries/ Probably a matter of contacting the fork dealers and seeing what they have as well. I would also keep an eye on the Auctions ( grays/ Manheim etc) to see what a full forklift could be had for. Might be able to take the batteries and sell the rest as parts to make the deal cheaper or use the parts to make an EV even for just round the yard. I was in bunnings yesterday and had to wait for a guy to pass with one of those electric wheelie stacker things. I was surprised to see it had a 1.5Ton capacity. Quite substantial for what it was. Probably have a decent enough capacity pack on it. I worked in a place years ago that had an electric fork. I'm not sure what the DOD capacity on those things is but they used to run it down till the thing wouldn't go anymore. had a guy out a couple of times who said it was fine, just wasn't up to the workload they put on it. Too stingy to lease a bigger one of course. Don't know how long the batteries would have lasted in that poor thing. |
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Haxby Guru Joined: 07/07/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 423 |
Gray's online has some bAtteries for auction finishing tomorrow!! Built in 2016 but in as-is status, alas they are in Queensland. auction |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Thanks Guys, I have printed out your posts. I have just spent $3K on a new vertical milling machine, received my new toy yesterday. Will definitely be looking at fork lift batteries but not for a little while  Cheers, Tony. |
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| Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
Pic's tony or it didn't happen |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Tomorrow..... The damned enormous thing weighs 450Kg, spent most of today wrestling it off my trailer and unpacking it, putting it together, wiping off the packing grease. I am totally knackered, a hot bath and then bed right now. Its something I have always wanted, and being 70 years old, If I did not get it now, I probably never would. Cheers, Tony. |
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Murphy's friend Guru Joined: 04/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 648 |
That sounds a bit like the 400kg lathe I sbought myself for a retirement present but this was 14 years ago - could not move that monster now but it was the best present I ever got.What are you going to mill with that machine? |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Don't want to hijack the thread, but for you machinery voyeurs here is a peep at my new toy. Its fairly unique among the Chinese mills, because it has a six speed gearbox, with real gears. Most only give you direct drive and a motor speed controller. The gearbox multiplies torque on the lower speeds, a motor controller does not, so heaps of grunt with only 1Hp. Its also very solidly put together, pretty happy with it.  Back on topic... Here are my three deceased 60Ah Winston cells. Note the slight swelling.  Cheers, Tony. |
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