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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Battery Rescue?
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Saturday voltage readings Well the batteries have settled at what looks like their own voltages, and it is still possible to pull the 9 watts of power out into a led light. Saturday morning 
Saturday afternoon 
As you can see the voltages have stabilized at well below Lead Acid levels, this is possibly due to several faulty cells, I have left them on charge overnight so till now Sunday lunch time they are still drawing current and have charged to 14 volts, I will put them on the pump 12 volt solar system for a few days and see what happens. I won't bore you with any more voltage readings as i think the point has been proven for the ALUM experiment. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Don't worry too much, this is not boring at all. Unless you have enough, this experiment is interesting and others (me including) can benefit coverting their own failed lead-acid batteries. Having some power supply for lights is success in my opinion. 12V is standard, but 6V and 9V can be used too. Interesting if solar panel can be directly connected to charge alum battery, or some kind of controller is a must? George |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi George Thanks for the encouragement on the experiment, there was so little feedback that I thought I was flogging a dead horse as well as a bead battery. I will try to put the number one battery to some useful purpose to justify all the work that went into the experiment, LED lighting for the computer room and a series of charge stations for the mobile devices that use USB charging and I also ordered a boost module to have a go at running the laptop in a limited way. I have the battery floating at 15 volts at the moment, so I am going to try it on the pump solar set up as it has extra capacity and see if it works together, battery number two is drawing current all the time rather than floating so an internal fault is making it useless. I think a regulator would be necessary as the voltage on an unregulated panel goes to 18 - 20 volts midday so I will hook it in parallel to the pump batteries which is also my float station for odd batteries I am desulphating, it is surprising how some of the old batteries have come up after a few weeks on the desulphator. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Bub73 Senior Member  Joined: 10/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 116 |
Hi Bob; Keep up the good work and take a look at the hits this thread been getting. Many are following what’s posted here. Isaiah and myself have had similar results with the alum conversion; but winter is upon us up here and cleaning old batteries is kinda out of season so we'll leave to you to carry on till spring.. Have fun Bob |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Yeah its a good read Bob. I have a couple of dead batteries I'm trying to recover as well, long periods on the charger and desulfator. I was thinking of going down the Alum path because I want to use the batteries on a old electric fence, and 9 volts would be fine for that. The old electric fence is designed for 6 volts, so I've fitted a resistor to run it off a 12v battery. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Glenn I think that would be a good use for them as they seem to have a long term of low output, I do think there is a use for the old batteries providing they are sound to start with, but the output is way down compared to a FLA. One of the little switch mode down converters into a big cap or two would be more efficient than a resistor and may keep the electric fence going longer. I made a Jaycar kit electric fence module years ago that operated off six volts cap discharge into a car coil, it was a real mean machine. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I tried the battery with a load this afternoon with the 9 watt load it was good but the 150 watt load killed it but it recovered and kept the 9 watt load going so at < 1 amp it is usable but more than 10 amps it drops to 4.5 volts. About as much good as a hip pocket in a tee shirt. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
OK not heavy alum battery worker, but better than nothing and with small investment is going to plod along. Two questions remaind if alum battery holds charge, also how much energy has to be used to charge it. (Is there something like charging efficiency?) Suppose we can use extra solar panel if alum battery wastes a lot of energy to get charged. - Wish I had better understanding of DC, AC and electronics George |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi George A couple of checks I have done on this battery shows it absorbs a small amount of energy and gives back a small amount of energy, it quickly floats up to 15 volts and then floats at a few milliamps its output limit is around 1 amp but it kept the LED 9 watt light going for 24 hours but did sag to 8 volts in the last few hours, I would need a data logger to get exact figures but they are a bit high tech for this old buzzard. It will be interesting to see if it helps the 12 volt pump batteries or is just along for the ride. I do feel that starting off with a new battery would give a much better result but I fear much lower efficiency than a FLA battery, the whole purpose of this test was to see if I could replicate some of the claims I see from the USA of miracles cures for scrap batteries, but I think that the age of Miracles is over, but it is also only my first try, when we get some rain I have a few more to try, so anything may happen. My present issue is the low conductivity of the electrolyte compared to acid or alkaline electrolytes as increasing to an optimum point the conductivity (strength) of the electrolyte increases the efficiency of the battery, but when i increase the ALUM in the electrolyte it saturates and drops out as crystals at a little above 10%. On very large plate area batteries the energy level could be much higher but they would have to be built specifically for the electrolyte, not using a lead acid configuration to start with, we see a similar effect in NIFE cells as the Alkaline electrolyte has less conductivity and chemical activity than sulfuric acid so has a lower cell voltage and needs more plate area for the same current potential, but the trade off is it lasts much longer as it doesn't eat itself out as a acid battery is prone to do. I do not think the ALUM battery wastes energy on charging if the battery is in good condition, but working with old scrap batteries, results will not be ideal as the internals have already had their days and it is more a matter of luck than good judgement as to what the results are. I suppose batteries are a compromise like most things in life. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Passing by garage I spotted several aged looking car batteries outside the wall. But when I asked if I could have them, fellow said no. Wasn't brave enough to continue conversation. Thought he might be happy to get rid of them. Maybe there are some legal restrictions on handling Lead? George |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi George They get about $10 for them for scrap now days, but I found a six pac of stubbies will get you on the good side and an ongoing supply of batteries, some are no good so of to scrap but a surprising number can be revitalized with a couple of weeks on the desulphator at 16 volts, a couple of cycles with a old headlight globe to pull them down to 10 volts and then let them float at 15 volts for a couple of days. The present battery in my car and 4x4 are both throw outs from the tire service 12 months ago also my pump batteries are all ex scrap all for the cost of a six pac of stubbies. Look for the ones that are the best and if you have a choice a quick look with a DVM to check voltage should be above 12 volts indicating all the cells are working even if a bit sulphated. If there was a voltage reg problem most mechanics replace the battery as well to avoid damaging the alternator charging into a dead flat battery and to make a few more bucks of course, sniff around if you find a good bloke you have a source of batteries. Laws are in place for the disposal of batteries but largely ignored of not known by the average joe. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All The battery is now connected to the pump batteries and I am waiting for a sensitive ammeter to measure cross current to see if it detracts from or adds to the use of the batteries a initial check with a multi meter showed a small charge current to bring the battery up to the 13.5 volt float but under load from the pressure pump I cannot detect any current flow back out of the battery when the pump cuts in, which I suppose is logical as the battery has a normal standing voltage of 10.5 volts against the lead acid batteries voltage of 13.5. I will leave it there as it seems to do no harm and then hook it to the light circuit in the next week or so when I can put an isolater relay run of the light connection on the regulator to isolate it at night. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I connected the battery to the pump batteries this morning before solar input, it was at 10.4 volts and the system voltage was 13,4 volts. It initially drew 280 MA from the system unfortunately my camera decided not to go so I didn't get the initial reading, by the time I changed battery in the camera it had settled down a bit. 
The overall voltage dropped a very small amount. 
Note no solar input at this time about 6 AM 
The input settled to 140 MA once again no determinable voltage drop on the pump batteries. 
The input by now had dropped to 100 MA. 8 AM. 
As the solar started to kick in the system voltage rose and the input to the battery started to increase, 9 AM. 
Then the current draw started to drop back indicating the battery was fully charged. 
A slight spike upward as the regulator went into equalization mode at 10 AM 
Dropped back when floated down to 14 volts 10:30 AM Then dropped back to 100 MA once battery voltage normalized. 
As the day went on the input remained fairly constant and when the pump was running dropped back to nearly zero but no evidence of the battery supplementing the pump batteries. 
All in all it has confirmed my idea that it is a side loader on the system and wouldn't contribute any current unless the system dropped below 10 volts which it never does. So to try to use an ALUM battery with lead acid is a waste of time, I will try to use it to run lights on its own by using an isolator relay, that will pull the light load of the pump batteries overnight. The ongoing saga. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Bob I had a hypathetalphoman here today I went to start my little skid steer and the starter turned ok but the Electric fuel pump wouldn't come in. So I went in and got a new one and put it on and it didn't work either. So I pulled that one off and took them both up to Bubs where it was warm and we tested and both worked ! So I went and put one back on and checked the hot wire and I had sparks there , So I hooked it up and it didn't work. Back up to Bubs yep it worked. So I took his jumpers and all and went and tried it on my battery and yes it didn't work!! I reversed the wires and it worked. Further investigation some how the polarity had been reversed! I took the battery out and hooked it to a big starter and let it run all it could then I hooked a smaller 12v dc motor and ran it Grave Yard Dead !. I hooked a good battery to + to + and - to - then hooked a battery charger to it and started to charge it in the right direction. I let it go like that for about a hour then I hooked another charger that will go to 40 amps and let it go til bed time then unhooked every thing and checked the battery and the polarity is in the right place now . I hooked it back up to a small charger and it is charging heavy but should be somewhat up in the mourning. I don't know what would change the polarity?? '  '
The skidder sets inside a metal shed Isaiah '  ' '' ''URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Iasiah I have only seen that happen once before, as you know you re polarize the generator by holding the relay cut out on the regulator points closed with the battery connected and the engine running slowly. An Auto electrician had been working on the machine and must have shorted out the regulator, then he changed batteries when he thought all was well but his test battery must have been in pole about face, anyway the machine worked for the day but the driver complained the radio didn't work, when I checked the radio the fuse was blown, replaced the fuse and it blew again, transistor radios do not like reverse polarity either. I first thought the new battery must have been marked wrong, but in fact it had also changed polarity, I didn't think that could happen but now you have a battery do the same, amazing. As to why it happened you are the only one that can work that out by going back over any work you did on it, I do not think the steel shed helped, but you could have a practical joker! I like you polarity correction format works well and saves the battery. I think my ALUM battery is going back to the scrap heap as it self discharges over a week, I would say that the grunge in the platepack has a slow short draining it down, as the plates are in a membrane container it was impossible to remove the internal grunge from the plate pack, I have a few more to play with when the weather cools a bit 46 C here today and still no rain so i had to buy a truck load of water but it is fairly mineral y so I do not use it flush the batteries. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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rustyrod Senior Member Joined: 08/11/2014 Location: AustraliaPosts: 121 |
I have a 12 volt 7 Ah battery that is reversed and seems happy to be that way. Came to me from being replaced in a ups routine service. Ups works fine. I wonder if I ever got the next battery will it be reversed too? Always Thinking |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
The battery in the skidder is a large car battery. Ill look and see what the AH is when I go out today . The skidder was used about a week or so ago . I went to use it Tuesday and it was cold and the Bendix wouldn't come in so I left it and didn't notice if the pump was working , You can hear it when it is first energized. The battery has been in the skidder several yrs. The battery seemed to work OK and if the pump would have worked reversed polarity I probably would never have found it! It took the big Starter I used to discharge it a long while to run it down direct hook up. We use the old big starter to cycle some battery's when reconditioning them. Rustyrod your probably be OK as long as you hook that battery the right polarity positive to positive no matter which post you use. Some things will work with either polarity and some are polarity protected. So you would have to determined what is the real + post and hook things accordingly. AS TIME GOES BY '  '
Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I am cleaning out some rubbish in my shed and came across the two batteries that where burnt in the shed fire I had several years ago, they have been sitting under the bench covered up wit junk for nearly three years now and as you can see are in a very sorry state, 
They where actually on fire and I manage to put them out along with rest of the fire or my shed would be gone. On closer examination after I ripped all the burnt plastic and ash of the top of the plates, I thought it may be a good idea to explain the membrane I mentioned earlier in this adventure, if you look closely you can see a wrapping of spongy fabric around the plates and over the top of this is a sheet of plastic which in this case got burned beyond recognition. 
This form of construction holds all the shed plate material and will not allow the flushing process to get rid of the grunge, while it is good for the long life of the battery it precludes the flushing and changing of electrolyte to ALUM such as I tried with the batteries several weeks ago. Sorry if this bores you but I thought it would explain the situation with enclosed plate packs. I have cleaned the batteries up as much as I can re-hydrate them and will see if they can be revived with a desulphator, I will let you know how that goes, maybe ugly but might be usable. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| jkis Newbie  Joined: 31/07/2014 Location: AustraliaPosts: 16 |
hi Bob, do you have more info on making your own battery's with rolled lead, i have done a few search's but not coming up with the info i need to make one cheers stuart |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
jkis and all, I herd of a man that was making his own battery using a plastic garbage can and Alum and the stainless steel gutter guard for his plates. I never seen it but was told it did work. The gutter guard should be fairly cheap if one wants to experiment. Iwonder if the stainless would hold the charge like the lead dose? I did get the polarity reversed on the battery out of my skid steer . I haven't as yet put it back in . I have had it on a smart charger since, I wanted to be sure all the electrolyte has its polarity in the right direction . I may give it a try today. I had to run the battery clear grave yard dead to make it easier to reverse the polarity. When you run a good battery down and let it set he battery will bounce back on its own and that is why I had to draw it down as far as I could . I wonder if this process would help clean the gunk off the plates?? ' '
Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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