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VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 12:31am 01 Nov 2014
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Three hours on and the light is still going and voltage hasn't dropped off, so thats enough to provide light for a cottage for the night, will see in the morning, might be a useful thing after all well sort of.
All the best
Bob Foolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 03:33pm 01 Nov 2014
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Hi All
I just checked the battery and light, it has now been running for 19 hours and the voltage is down to 8.5 volts that's giving a reasonable light still, battery number one is holding voltage at 10.2 volts, no change over the last 24 hours, so I connected the light to it to see how it goes, it seems that the capacity has had an increase after the last cycling, not in my opinion to a useful level for power but I think the two batteries in parallel would supply all the light for the house using 3 watt CRE globes, maybe the exercise hasn't been a complete waste of time.
I think the conductivity of the ALUM solution is much lower than acid solution so I tried a stronger solution but the ALUM wouldn't remain in in solution and crystals dropped out when the solution cooled, I mixed the ALUM at 80C so it was fairly hot.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 06:19pm 01 Nov 2014
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I love your detailed reports.
thanks
gww
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 06:03pm 02 Nov 2014
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Hi All
Well 26 hours on and the light is still going at 8.1 volts so it has proved itself to be useful in low amperage draw situation, nothing like I hoped for, but still enough to be useful for lighting, I will now fully charge both batteries and try to get some idea of a self discharge, the LED CRE light drops out at 7.5 volts so I will take that as my full discharge point and a settled voltage of 10.2 volts seems to be the maximum charge . when charging they absorb best at 15 volts from the trickle charger indicating a higher internal resistance than lead acid, but this works OK with the solar charger.
Operating between these two voltages seems appropriate for LED lights but not much else, if it will stay within that bracket for a week it would be useful for lighting and a USB power feed for the tablet and cell phones, maybe you guys have other uses you could suggest. I will hook them up to my solar pump supply and isolate them with a diode and run a few outside night lights initially to see how they go.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462
Posted: 12:37am 03 Nov 2014
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Suppose step-up/step-dwn buck converters would be of some use to.
Especially step-up one to drain that remaining bit that is there but is below voltage for cree light to work.
I know converters use some power to run themselves, but could extend use once voltage drops too low.George
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 02:05am 03 Nov 2014
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Hi George
From what I have found with these two buggered batteries as far as light is concerned I think there would be enough power available from the two of them to run a led light system for a cottage with sensible management without boost converters, the two batteries have demonstrated that they could run a nine watt CRE load or over 48 hours assuming 10 3 watt cre globes in a house it would run night time light for two or three days, so to me that would be workable, the other use is a down converter to USB 5 volt for tablets and phone charging, at around 90% efficient switchmode converter that would be workable, I bought 2 to try at the huge cost of $2.50 each so that didn't break the bank, I was hoping to get a boost converter for 18 volts to run the laptop but considering the performance on heavier draw it may be impractical, I will try it after several more charge cycles as the loading seems to be improving a little. As I do further testing I will incorporate with existing solar pump panels which have a margin of extra capacity and see if my theory could work out, 10 E27 light globe holders and 10 3 watt cre light globes have been ordered so it will be interesting how that works out. This is what I call the wife winger test if she says nothing much it is a success.
I suppose the issue is how long they will last in their present state, and to be honest the work isn't worth the outcome as a $17 motorbike battery would do the same, but it is nice to have the satisfaction of of salvaging some scrap batteries.
I will try it with some better batteries but I believe that it will not give anywhere near the output of a lead acid battery for heavy loads such as engine starting, my theory on some of the videos on youtube that show the battery starting an engine is because of residual acid in the plate pack still acting as a lead acid battery even though filled with Alum solution as it took me 10 rinses to get the acid out and when drained on the concrete floor there was enough acid to etch the concrete floor.
Baking soda was not strong enough to neutralize the acid and washing soda was a bit more successful but there was still residual acid in the plate pack.
I may stand corrected by a more knowledgeable person but none have come forward so far.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462
Posted: 01:50pm 03 Nov 2014
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Hi Bob,
How do you find out % efficiency of converter?
Is it something you have to ask for or some sellers display this information?
(You are not alone to hang on to crap that is laughable when you use some logic, but I always look at it that I have it already and might as well love it to death :)
Not to mention that in case of old 12V batteries it is kind of easy to get some cheaply or free, so if converting to alum doesn't cost too much suppose quite economical solution for extra energy storage )
Also Bob, do you have some idea how often you have to replace alum solution?
Or it is something that lasts for the rest of battery life and all you have to do is add some water from time to time?George
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 03:01pm 03 Nov 2014
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Hi George
On the efficiency of the switch-mode converters it is the ratio of the power input amps * volts to the power output amps * volts , to do this you need a sensitive amp and voltmeter in both positions and a fixed load, the ones i have checked have worked out around the 90% for loads above 75% of rating with slightly lower at lighter loads due to fixed internal circuit losses, on heavy loads the losses go up again due to switching losses.
This is some of the ones I have tried and tested as windmill boost modules.
I found that their heat sinking was inadequacy so I used a piece of light alloy angle to solve the problem
Three terminal voltage regulators working in buck mode have a higher loss due to the dissipation of excess watts in the voltage reduction process, basically I see them as a variable resistor that dissipates excess power as it regulates to a load.
We all collect rubbish that is going to be useful one day batteries included, I was hoping from the threads I followed that the batteries could be made new again by the ALUM process, (Some people still believe in father Christmas too), it is not the cost of the conversion but the time expended that is more the issue as $12 bag of Alum made enough Alum solution for six 12 volt 9 plate batteries with a bit left over and a packet of washing soda $4 is enough to clean them out, about 50 gallons of rinsing water, would probably do the trick, but I found that I had to boost charge a few times during the rinsing to get the acid and crud out of the plate pack or it just remained in there.
I am no expert on the process as this is my first try to salvage some batteries by this method so I can only report what happens to me and my experiments, as for the life of the electrolyte I have no proven theory at the moment but I am working on replacing the electrolyte after a few weeks as I found it impossible to remove all the acid and crud during the cleaning process and I believe that on a few charge cycles the remaining rubbish will contaminate the new electrolyte, after that it is unknown waters, but working on experience with NIFE cells the electrolyte slowly dies and needs replacing after a few years as the capacity drops off, I thing these will be much the same but am yet to prove my assumption.
As for water loss it seems different to a lead acid as there is not the chemical activity in the cells unless I subject them to a high rate of charge 30 volts or more then they will boil and carry on, normal charging at 14 volts shows little cell activity even when fully charged and floating at 15 volts. Evaporation will take a bit of water but with all the abuse I have given these batteries in an attempt to get them going I haven't added any more water or electrolyte yet.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 01:56pm 04 Nov 2014
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Hi All
This morning I went to check the batteries being charged in parallel on the trickle charger and both had achieved a float voltage of 15.1 volts which the equivalent to the equalization charge on the 12 volt solar regulator that runs the water pump and keeps other batteries floated until I decide what to do with them.
At lunch time I will disconnect the batteries from the charger and let them sit until tonight to establish a resting voltage on both, then see what the natural discharge is over a week without load, in the mean time I will do a bit of work on the 12 volt lighting system for the house, replacing the fluro fittings with e 27 batten holders initially I will go for 240 volt leds but in the past I have found them very unreliable so when finished I will go all 12 Volt and hope for a more reliable result with them.
The original light wiring was done with 240 volt 3.2 mill cable and used as a 32 Volt system for a number of years until the power was put on, some 20 years ago. The wiring handled 50 watt 32 volt globes so should have no trouble with the LED loading.
All the best
Bob
Foolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 05:18pm 04 Nov 2014
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Hi All
Battery number one has settled to 11.1 volts but battery number two is still taking a charge at 3 amps so will leave it a bit longer to see what it will do, either it has increased capacity or developed an internal short, I can tell later when I check its voltage again.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 12:13am 05 Nov 2014
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Hi All
This evening six hours after the Finnish of float at 15 volts the two batteries are going their own way the older battery on the right was the worst in my estimation but is holding volts better than the left hand side battery, that had sat for less than 2 years but judging from the voltage sag so far it has a damaged cell.
Voltages are for left battery number 2 are lower right hand meter is the left hand battery number 2 sorry about that.
Start of test at lunch time both where floating at 15 volts.
All the best
Bob
Foolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 08:45pm 05 Nov 2014
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Thursday Morning
Thursday evening
Battery number has dropped of markedly during the day today while battery number one shows a little higher voltage not that is an issue as digital voltmeters tend to flick around a bit so its only a point of a volt.
By the reading it indicates to me that battery number two has a weak / faulty cell as it is about the 1.75 volt per cell below battery number one.
All the best
Bob Foolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 10:26pm 06 Nov 2014
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Friday
Friday Morning
Friday Evening
Battery Number one has held a reasonable level of voltage whereas battery number two continues dropping.
I think the experiment is at at end as the batteries are nor=t going to be useful for anything other than running a few leds or small transistor radio so we could say the concept of recovering batteries from the junk heap is a myth and not worth the effort.
perhaps starting with a good battery and converting it may have some merit, but why convert a good battery, it doesn't make sense to me, a good desulphate and some extreme cycling to break open the sulfate would I feel give a more useful result than playing around with different electrolytes.
The problem I feel, and am open to discussion on the subject, is the conductive power of the electrolyte, I tested ALUM and compared to acid at 30% concentration the alum has more than twenty times the resistance and compared to strong alkaline caustic soda as NIFE electrolyte there is a big difference in conductivity so the internal resistance of an ALUM battery is much higher and therefore less able to deliver current to any load in particular a heavy one.
I tried increasing the concentration of ALUM in the solution but as soon as the electrolyte cooled the ALUM precipitated out of solution and didn't decrease the resistance of the solution.
So back to my main battery bank as it has been sitting in desulphate mode for a bit over a week and all the cells are lightly gassing, hopefully next week I can get it to 16.1 volts to finish the desulphation process and do some load testing to see if it has recovered to a usable capacity.
You will note that my bench gave way to gravity the trestles collapsed so now I am watching them on the ground.
All the best
Bob
Foolin Around
isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303
Posted: 03:09am 07 Nov 2014
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Bob
You did a good job posting your results on the alum conversion
We have the same conclusion on the alum conversion.
My little lawn mower battery went open , another for the scrap pile.
Its getting winter here now.
Isaiah
URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL>
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 01:33pm 07 Nov 2014
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Hi Isaiah
It is disappointing that there isn't a recycle use for the old batteries, when I read about the ALUM treatment I thought it sounded to good to be true, but to prove it to myself I had to have a go at it. There may be a use for ALUM batteries in very low level energy systems such as lighting and perhaps a radio stereo in an off grid survival situation, but as far as a useful in the normal sense that we expect batteries to do for us, such as starting motors and running inverters, it would require starting off with a huge battery to get a small output.
Next month I have to get a new battery for my forklift and am thinking of doing a comparison on a new battery to get some figures not compromised by old age and junk status. While it seems a bit silly to compromise a new battery in this way I suppose I could convert it back to acid should it prove an abject failure.
I am like you and have a lot of batteries in the scrap pile that I was hoping to get some further use out of, nice to dream.
A well managed Lead Acid battery bank should last 15 to 20 years when fitted with a desulphator so that is the way to go, but best of all is the NIFE batteries that would long outlast us all,so maybe there is no point to that either.
I long for a bit of your cool as the temperature here is over 40C nearly every day and no rain and they say we are heading into the worst drought for a hundred years, but the whether forecasters are known to get things wrong from time to time.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303
Posted: 09:01pm 07 Nov 2014
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Bob,
What might be good is to get a dry charge motor cycle battery and put the alum in instead of the lead acid. I don't know what your lift truck takes for a battery but a motorcycle battery may not be as expensive for experiment.
If it works out good and you don't have a use for it you could send it to me to put in my 1968 Triumph motor cycle. ''
Our weather here these days is real erratic, hot and cold all in one week then we get rain then no rain til things burn up. I have a Aloe Veria plant that goes out side after all chances of frost and comes back in before frost.It goes under a Maple tree so its not in direct sun. The leaves turned brown from the heat this summer.
A lot of folks had trouble with their gardens this yr things not growing due to weather.''
They did say on the local news that the power grid was hacked here today.
I would expect anything for the next couple yrs til we get a new head puppet.
try and enjoy what we have left!!!!! ''
IsaiahURL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL>
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 11:58pm 07 Nov 2014
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Hi Isaiah
The weather has really gone crazy, this year it has been so dry all my fruit trees are dying I flushed the batteries next to the orange trees to try to get a bit of water to them but even them are starting to die now, no more water in the tanks so any further battery experiments all are on hold, I have several 160 AH 12 volt units I was going to do but lack of water has put that on hold. I like your Triumph nice bit of gear, I had a Tiger 100 hard tail half a century ago along with a an assortment of other bikes, wish I had them now as they are worth a fortune out here now.
My Aloe vera plants have gone brown but are surviving how much longer though I do not know. I have a bore but it needs cleaning and a new pump so I will have to save for that next. The forklift battery is a 11 plate 70AH unit not a big electric forklift battery so the cost is less than $100 so not to bad, I have not seen dry batteries around for a while as everyone is going SLA or Gel cell now, that's progress, I have revived a few gell cell batteries with the desulphator so it works on them as well and Downwind has had success re hydrating them last time I was talking to him, but i am not sure if it was an ongoing success.
I have a couple of 250 AH dry batteries in the shed, been sitting there for 30 years left over from a previous power system never been loaded I might have a look at them and load them with ALUM before sending them to the scrap, on present indication I might get 25 AH out of them, big heavy buggers, probably why nobody stole them.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 04:47pm 08 Nov 2014
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I say this with love. If they are already 30 years old, does anything ever really make it to the scrap yard?
This is a great site, I have found it a great educational tool over the years.
When I was a very young lad, my dad used to pull the Tar top battery's apart, if I recall correctly it was mainly to clean the Gunk out as mentioned here.
However, I also recall my dad had several casting plates for melting Lead & pouring/manufacturing new plates, I am not sure if dad purchased them as he was a Toolmaker, so he may have made them by hand.
I wonder if anyone has any of these ?
I suspect it would not be that hard to make new ones from plate Aluminum ...especially if one has the use of a CNC machine.
I can 3D CAD model one if anyone wants to bother measuring one.
I just found an old Aluminum mold I used to pour Lead Diving weight belt weights.
Regards,
DenEdited by Madog 2014-11-10Small minds discuss people, Average minds discuss events, Great minds discuss ideas, Be GREAT !
See this Great engine with No Crankshaft: http://www.revetec.com
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 05:32pm 08 Nov 2014
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Hi Madog
In the good old days we did all sorts of battery repairs as the batteries where repairable, I had a set of molds for the big 2 volt glass cells to make plates and the plate holding claws and it was possible to buy the filler material for the plates but a few searches I have done lately all that is gone in favor of sealed batteries, we now live in a convenience world where it wouldn't be viable commercially to repair batteries, so it gets down to a hobby thing to see what we can save and throw away.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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