TheBackShed.com

Forum Index : Other Stuff : Battery Rescue?

Page 15 of 29

Author

Message

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 04:20pm 24 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi Isaiah

The recommendation I am going by is 10 to 1 ratio it works out at a coffee mug of Alum to a gallon of water, water to be at near boiling temperature to get it to dissolve.

This battery I am doing at the moment may not do so well as the plates in it are in a sleeve as it was a semi sealed battery,
it has been sitting in my scrap heap for five years so I thought it would be a good worst case battery as so many accounts I have seen and read speak of getting a old battery laying in the rubbish for years and it comes back as good as new, I think they do not document their failures,
I have a few others to do that have been sitting less time and are exposed plates, I will let you know how they all go.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

gww1
Regular Member

Joined: 14/06/2013
Location: United States
Posts: 63

Posted: 07:24pm 24 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

What is alum and what type of place do you buy it from? Do you salvage any electolight or just go with the cup of alum to gal of water?

Thanks
gww

isaiah

Guru

Joined: 25/12/2009
Location: United States
Posts: 303

Posted: 11:14pm 24 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

gww1
Alum is used in pickling and can be bought where they have canning supplies.
Lets see what Bob Finds out Here in the states we didnt have too much luck with it.
it is a pickling salts and Iget mine at a bulk food store cheaper there about $1.25
per lb.
it dosent eat your clothes and stuff up like the lead acid dose.
voltage per cell is down a little.
Isaiah

URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL>

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 01:29am 25 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi Gww1

I got my Alum from the swimming pool shop a bag cost $50 for 60 lbs.

I charged the battery for two days on hi voltage 50 volts as it was very sulphated and only read .2 volts when I checked it initially, I do not think it is a very good candidate as I found when I got he initial grunge out of it that the plates are in membrane as in sealed battery so it is difficult to get the plates clean. I have flushed and washed with baking soda 5 times and between each flushing out I put it on the high voltage charge to boil the cells, 5 cells seem to respond OK but not so much activity on the 6th cell the last flush with water I gave it another boil up on the hi voltage charge and when left to rest it showed 12.5 volts indicating there is still some active electrolyte in there, so I flushed with clean water again and now allowing to drain, tomorrow I will do the Alum mix and see what happens, this battery is the worst I could have chosen so If I get any result at all it will show that it is a viable method to try.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

gww1
Regular Member

Joined: 14/06/2013
Location: United States
Posts: 63

Posted: 04:12am 25 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Ok, Thank you guys
gww

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 09:54pm 25 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi All

As I suspected this battery is a worst case exercise, after six flush baking soda and charge cycles it has become apparent that the baking soda isn't doing the job, the plates are enclosed in a membrane so it is not getting in good enough, so today I took a different tack, after draining upside down for 12 hours a gave it a charge of water and a high voltage charge for 30 minutes flushed it again then added 3 heaped teaspoons of washing soda to each cell, it bubbled away happily for 30 minutes then settled down to slight bubbling half an hour later I checked the voltage and it showed 10.1 volts so it looks like I have a alkaline battery, I will leave it overnight and flush in the morning then add the ALUM and see what happens.

The concept I believe is working but it will now depend on how much active material is available as to the capacity it will deliver, the recommendation is to cycle charge and discharge a number of times to set the alum and plate combination so more work there.

I wouldn't do one of these semi sealed batteries again as the membrane makes it neigh on impossible to clean and desulphate the plates.

The ongoing saga.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 11:54am 26 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi All

Morning report the battery settled down overnight, no more bubbling in the cells and voltage settled at 8.5 volts, I put it on the boost charger and it accepted 20 amps before it would accept only 5 amps so that is positive, There was quite a bit of grunge in the water so it got another clean out. I will leave it on the boost charge for a couple of hours and then flush once it is hot, I think one more flush and boil up with plain water and I will hit it with the ALUM.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 12:02pm 26 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

HI Isaiah

A photo of the resealed battery, I had to do it twice as there was a leak through the porosity but it looks OK now.

I have refilled all four damaged batteries and now included them in the battery bank for a equalization charge.

All the best

bob

Foolin Around

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 10:32pm 26 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi All

Battery number one is now filled with ALUM electrolyte but it dosen't look to promising as it is only taking a small conditioning charge, the indicated volts off charge 11.5 volts but Not much capacity at this point, according to the experts it takes four or more cycle charges to get the capacity up so once again time will tell, I will leave overnight tonight and do another cycle tomorrow.

Preparing the electrolyte.

I used a four liter bottle of water to 400 grams of ALUM by weight.

I heated the water to make it dissolve the ALUM faster.

On filling the battery bubbled strongly and evenly across the cells, one hour later it settled down to a slight bubbling across all the cells, I then put it on the trickle charger and all the cells started bubbling evenly again so it is all active all that remains to do is to cycle it a few times and see if I can get any worthwile capacity.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 09:57pm 27 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi All

I have done one equalization charge on both batteries, battery number one shows a high internal resistance as the charge went up to higher than expected voltage.

Battery number two showed a better absorption rate of 30 amps at 18 volts showing it is the more active of the two.

When I was doing the flush cycle today I was amazed how much grunge came out of it it makes you wonder haw much plate material is left

After sitting on a trickle charge for a few hours both batteries where showing 12 volts at rest. Finding a suitable load was a problem as I tried a 150 Watt driving light of my truck but that was too much load initially, so I reverted to a 10 watt LED work light, on battery number one the voltage loaded with this light sagged to 9 volts and kept slowly decreasing before stabilizing at eight point five volts and sat at that for all the afternoon.

Battery number 2 was put under load about 5;30 PM and is still running I think it will go all night as it sagged to eight point five volts and is staying there.

A few more discharge / charge cycles on the trickle charger will tell the real story.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 03:26pm 28 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi All

Battery number two run the light for eight hours overnight and went down to seven volts where the light dropped out, so it seems that the best output voltage is between eight point five and seven point five volts.

Battery number one sat on nine volts without load overnight and this morning run the light for several hours. On both batteries there has been a increase of activity after the first cycle but it brings into question as to how useful these batteries would be with the low voltage, before they had none so it proves it is an improvement but is it a useful improvement for all the work gone into them.

I think that the concept of getting an old battery from the scrap heap and making it into a new useful battery is busted, as both these batteries where from the scrap heap, both nine plate 50 AH batteries and the best they demonstrate so far is low voltage and around 10 AH for battery number two and 4 AH for battery number one, a few more cycles may improve the AH capacity but the lower operating voltage limits their usefulness to running LED lighting system or some other low voltage application.

I will try a couple of non dead batteries that are working OK but will not start the mower and the car, I am using these on my water pump solar setup so that will be interesting to see if they can go back and do the same job or better once converted to ALUM.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 01:46pm 29 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi All

Both batteries have shown an increase in capacity but not to the point where I would get excited, several charge / discharge cycles now see battery number one able to run the nine watt work light for 12 hours plus but at only eight volts.

Battery number two now managed to light up the 150 Watt driving light for a few minutes so it has improved a bit with cycling but the voltage is still only eight point five volts under load and drops off to a few volts when the load is left connected.

I have a few other batteries I will experiment with when the weather cools a bit as it has been over 40C during the week and that doesn't agree with me.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

gww1
Regular Member

Joined: 14/06/2013
Location: United States
Posts: 63

Posted: 02:51pm 29 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Bob
How much energy are you having to put in the battery to get 9 watts out for 12 hours?
Thanks
gww

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 08:39pm 29 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi Gww1

It is on my trickle charger 4 AH for 24 hours but as it charges up it comes back to less than half amp, and a I do not have a watt absorbed meter it is hard to tell what the actual result is, when I first connect it the charger cuts in and out on overload after five hours it settles down to a steady 4 amps then slowly tapers off to a half amp, so your guess is as good as mine as to how much power is being lost, although I expected that loss during the plate conditioning process.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

gww1
Regular Member

Joined: 14/06/2013
Location: United States
Posts: 63

Posted: 04:06pm 30 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

I was just curious, alot of times batteries can still be used but when they get old the losses really add up. I find you experments interesting.
Thank
gww

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 07:04pm 30 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi Gww1

I hate to throw things away too and was hoping for a usable result from the ALM experiment, in one way it was a success in that two completely dead batteries have been brought back to some life, but finding a use for them is not so easy, perhaps a back up power for a tablet or cell phone, the other thing that comes to mind is a power source for led lights such as a work light for the workshop or our outdoor light array, both these will depend on the leak down factor when I Finnish conditioning them. They would need to be floated on a small solar panel so the losses do not matter compared to power floating them.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

gww1
Regular Member

Joined: 14/06/2013
Location: United States
Posts: 63

Posted: 05:59am 31 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Yea, I find it hard to find uses also. I have 4 six volt that I throw a charge to every three months and have only used them when plucking chickens with my dc motored home made chicken plucker. Two six volt batteries with smashed copper pipe connecting them to make them 12 volt are just to heavy and flimsy to lift and have to be moved with a small dolly.

I have one marine battery that will run a trolling motor one time around a 6 acre lake. I put a sixtry watt solar panel in the boat and it goes longer.

I could get my money back in scrap price but I can't make myself get rid of them cause I keep thinking I am going to find a use.
gww

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 03:42pm 31 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi Gww1

it sounds to me like you have the basis of a good little solar system with those batteries, a couple of 100 watt panels and it would surprise you what you can do with them, forty years ago that would have been a system to run a small cottage with all the necessities, these days we expect too much and want to power all of our things in the house, sixty five years ago we ran every electrical thing on the farm from a set of 32 volt batteries and a water wheel in the creek, when it went down and we went back to candles and Kero lamps and and ice box instead of the fridge we really appreciated Grandpa getting it going again, these days we expect a bit much and do not appreciate what we can achieve with a simple system. The problem with the ALUM batteries is the non standard voltages, it would take six batteries in series parallel to go to a 24 volt nominal system assuming I could get enough current out of them to rune something useful.

I like the lake that sounds idyllic.

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

Georgen
Guru

Joined: 13/09/2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 462

Posted: 08:13pm 31 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

What is your alum filled battery self-discharge?

Can it be charged and left for a month or something and still have 90% something charge left in?

(Suppose you didn't play with them long enough to find out)

But, if there is somewhere lots of room and there is supply of bad batteries then alum conversion would be OK.

Unless some of them would drain other batteries to make short lived power supply.
Still something, but lousy.

George

VK4AYQ
Guru

Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2539

Posted: 10:01pm 31 Oct 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Print this post

Hi George

I just went and checked the batteries and found they are holding at 9.7 volts when i took them off charge they where 11 volts and that sagged to 10.1 volts after several hours, according to what I have read they have a cell voltage of 1.75 volts with Alum so that is much as expected, I tried the 150 watt load and the went down to 3.5 volts so they cannot take the load, I have now connected a 10 watt load to see how long that goes for. it indicated to me that internal resistance is high as the energy is there but it cannot get out to the load.

An interesting point to note is that when I was trying to desulphate them they where running the 150 watt load for a couple of minutes even though the where buggered so there internal resistance was lower with the acid than the ALUM.

I think the only way to be accurate about the conversion is to get a new battery and check its load capability then drop the acid and do it again with ALUM and compare the results.

From what I have seen with these two batteries I believe that if I had put the same amount of work into them to clean and desulphate them They would have been more useful but still for all intents and purposes buggered.

I have some less buggered batteries to try when the weather comes a bit more favorable but I am not optimistic of a good result, it make me wonder on conversions I have seen on the internet as to how real they are and if the method has any merit.

The self discharge is a matter of time and after this discharge cycle I will charge and let them sit and measure the voltage every week, but as these batteries where buggered it may not be an accurate indication, I would be very surprised if they only lost 10 over one month, although in a solar system this is not as important as loss of capacity by higher internal resistance.

Another point was that during the flushing I filled them with a solution of washing soda and had a better voltage and load capacity than with the Alum, they where in fact an alkaline cell, as this was part of the flushing I didn't do any further checking on it but may be something for the future.

Happy daze

All the best

Bob

Foolin Around

Page 15 of 29

Print this page