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VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 03:41pm 16 Oct 2014
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Hi Isaiah
When I have re done a battery with acid by rinsing out with water I found that some of the grunge in the bottom of the cell got in between the plates when turning the battery over to drain it, when the re charge started it was OK, then it would form a bridge when the lead content in the grunge was reconstituted and shorted out the cell, maybe this is the problem with yours. The old battery guy I worked with had a vibrator on his work bench to shake the battery to dislodge the grunge before recharging.
GWW1
Draining and flushing with alkaline should neutralize the remaining acid so corrosion in the short term shouldn't be a problem, the recommendation is to leave the battery inverted overnight to let it dry out a bit the main thing is to flush well and bump the battery around a bit to dislodge as much grunge as possible.
On the old batteries with the hard rubber case and pitch sealing the battery guy used to take out each plate packs and clean them and then flush the case out, this isn't possible with the new plastic case so cleaning out is a bit of a hit and miss affair.
I like you choice of a forklift battery as they are very robust and well constructed compared to normal automotive batteries.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 04:46pm 16 Oct 2014
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yahoo
That pretty reasuring and probly about what I use. I have never measured my loads but the sg are about 1.220 each morning on my low cell which is about all I check most time. The batteries are sg 1.285 so I am guessing about 15 kwhs give or take.
The life of course is only if I am not cronicly under or over charging them. I always feel I am doing both at the same time. I added trimetric battery meter today. I wanted to just check my loads but couldn't figure out how to do it so I just hooked it up normal. I didn't really think I needed one but some felt it might give me a clue on weather I am actually charging my battery or the low sg was from the factory.
Bob
I will probly sell them for scrap but I bought some golf carts for ten buck each so I could try my used inverters out before buying the forktuck battery. I blew one of them up putting a load on it but the inverters worked great.
Thanks for the responces freindlyness and also for answering my question.
gww
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 08:55pm 16 Oct 2014
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If you would like to start a new topic and give us some further details on how you are charging etc and why you think you are both under and over charging we should be able to give you some guidance.
cheers Yahoo I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 03:11am 17 Oct 2014
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Yahoo
I really am not trying to steal this thread, you guys just mentioned a couple of thing that perked my interest and I am just selfish enough that I always add my own stuff incase someone wants to throw me a bone.
I am actually assesing my battery on anouther forum and type so slowly and spell so badly that I don't know if I have it in me to type it all out again.
Needless to say this is my first battery and I don't know good or bad except what I have read, which is all over the place.
I may at some point take you up on your offer to help later but for now think I will see what info I gether from the trimetric for a week or so.
I have been surfing this site for a couple of years cause I have a fisher and paykel I may get to someday. I check it everyday but as you can see from the number of post I have that I don't interceed that often. Plus gizmo gets around and has helped me from other places.
Thanks
gww
isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303
Posted: 03:40am 17 Oct 2014
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gww1
as long as your post is on topic which it is you are more than welcome to post it here.
your post may help someone else in the future that we probably will not know about.
when you go to the main page and look at how many view's this thread has.how many other forums have a thread with that many views.
so keep your questions coming here .
Bob
the vibrator is a idea I have had for some time and never implemented.
I do have a antique vibrator that you hook to your arm or leg I may just give that a try.
The vibrator seems to be pretty aggressive.
Bubs solar what we did is take most of his panels and put them on one rack.
Now he has to get them wired before snow flies . Ill; try and get a picture of it.URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL>
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 03:50am 17 Oct 2014
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Well the best idea is you start your own thread, that way you get replys to your question and allows others to follow your path in the future.
Nothing worst than a thread that wonders between several peoples topics, as any one reading it later sees it as total waffle, and not informative.
There is a word for your response to the thread its called "HIJACK" where you hijack someones thread for your purpose, rather than start a new thread on your topic in question.
It dont matter if your topic is the same as another, its your question and your thread, not a hijack of another thread.
Also Google and other search engines pick up on topic titles not waffle, so help Glenn by creating topics (new threads) and not adding to a long thread causing waffle in the thread.
Your questions are valid. just start your own thread or several threads to ask them in.Sometimes it just works
gww1 Regular Member Joined: 14/06/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 63
Posted: 05:32am 17 Oct 2014
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I think my last post was not clear.
I had ask questions about something that was brought up in this thread. As poeple responded to my question more info was brought up and due to thankfullness and curticy I responded back. When I wrote the part that you highlighted I was pointing out that I didn't want to take the post off track but was thankfull for what was offerred. My two queswtions were Does deep discharge cost more per kwh. and do the plates get hurt when they are exposed to air. The rest was personality and commonality to show that my interest had a reason that they questions I ask could have meaning to me in the same fassion as it does to the ones in the discussion.
I am thankfull that the guys showed interest in my doings and it made me feel very welcome. My last post was just to say I didn't want to side track by going to far into my situation.
Thanks
gww
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 10:22pm 19 Oct 2014
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Problems in Paradise.
On the weekend I wandered over to the shed to get some tools for the forklift project and as I walked past the number 2 battery bank I noticed the green OK light on the desulphator was out, on the desulphators I use they have a green OK light that is on when the battery is above 26 volts if it goes out it means that the block of batteries connected to that desulphator is below 26 volts, it also has a red light that comes on at 23 volts warning that the battery is discharged, no red light on this block of batteries, but as the system voltage was floating at 27 volts it required investigation.
A closer look at the individual batteries in the block showed catastrophic failure, the cases had started to burst, a quick check with the DMM showed a voltage of 24 across this block of batteries, four batteries 6 volt in series 125 AH, isolating this block and a quick load test showed about 50% load capacity and higher than usual voltage drop. Bugger a big job ahead and stalling of the forklift project, I decided to pull all the batteries in this battery bank out and do a battery by battery load test and check all cable connections while I was at it, big job as there are 24 batteries in this bank and each one is heavy.
After checking all the batteries for standing voltage I found the one that had failed it was showing 4.2 volts and the case had split open on the inner cell so not visible from the front four other batteries had also split open on one or two cells but where still operating at 6.6 volts amazing, being a glass mat sealed battery the center of the cell still had enough moisture to work but the outer edge was just a mass of crystal sulphation that expanded to split open the case.
These are very high quality sealed lead acid batteries ex government building so I was curious what was the problem and what caused it, so the only thing was to cut open the faulty cells and the not faulty cells on the faulty batteries and see what happened. To cut a long story short, they had just been drying out from age, some of the badly corroded cells had little to no moisture in the plate pack, and had started corroding from the outer wrap of the cells generating pressure on the cases which subsequently split open.
The good cells in the bad batteries still had some moisture in the plate pack and showed no sulphation or other corrosion and still held 2.2 volts across the exposed plate pack.
Being a fully sealed no maintenance battery there is no way of checking electrolyte level or SG you can only do a voltage check across each battery and from what I can see that is meaningless as the all show OK until the case blows open and one or more plate packs die, as in this case. I think I would prefer a FLA battery at least you can monitor it a bit better.
All the best
Bob
Foolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 12:21pm 20 Oct 2014
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Hi All
I am hoping to salvage a few batteries out of the pack that I pulled out over the weekend, I have 5 confirmed gone past salvage and one marginal, that would leave me twenty four with possibilities so assuming I can get them back to a useful level it still gives a pack of 650 AH depending on how much capacity is lost due to this event.
History of this set of batteries is they where made in 1999 and installed in the building in February 2000 they where pulled out of service in 2008 when the building was decommissioned and they sat in the demolition yard for 12 months, and I acquired them in 2009, at that time I believe they where a bit sulphated from sitting around but the unit voltages where all between 6.4 and 6.5 volts. After setting them all up I gave them a desulphation for a month and all unit voltages came up to 6.8 volts and load tests showed a 100% load over a 20 hour discharge on cycling.
Battery specs are 125 AH on a 10 hour discharge float voltage on a 24 volt configuration is 27.5 volts equalization charge is 30 volts.
In my battery bank they where floated a spec and never discharged below 24 volts as that gave sufficient capacity for what I needed and a monthly equalization charge to 30 volts, so all should have been well as far as management was concerned.
Then looking into the specs a bit further I found that they are rated to loose 1 % of electrolyte volume per year at 25 degrees Celsius, and I think I found the cause of the problem I have, for the temp here is hotter than spec, in the shed it is above 30 C most of summer and at times to 40 C. during winter no problems.
According to the specifications the batteries are rated at a 15 year float life at 25 C and a 10 year replacement requirement if cycled to 50% of capacity. When this is considered they are still a very robust battery set, but the thing that I think is the killer is the electrolyte loss, even though it is small, when you think about it the water lost from solution over fifteen years at spec is around 20% + and that concentrates the electrolyte, factor in the higher than usual temperature at my place it could be even higher. Being a fully sealed battery you cannot under normal circumstances replace the water or even check the SG, for the design use as a maintenance free battery to be replaced in ten years this isn't such a problem but when we try to get additional service life out of the batteries it is.
This week I have to pull out the batteries from bank one and check them all a quick look tells me they have fared a bit better because they are in a cooler part of the shed but I will not know until I pull each battery and check them all.
The ongoing saga.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221
Posted: 08:14pm 20 Oct 2014
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thats a shame, but at least you got 5 years out of them after they were decommissioned.
Are you able to open the others at all to add water? Some of the SLAs I've seen you can actually pop the caps off. Its normallyl a screwdriver effort.
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 12:36am 21 Oct 2014
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Hi Powerednut
I tried to pry the valve chamber off but it was bonded on so I chopped it off with a hammer and chisel and completely buggered it, but at least I got access to the individual cells, this was on one of the wrecked batteries, so I decided to drill holes through the top of the case as a better move. I drilled 3/16 holes in the top of each cell and I will plug them with a piece of 3/16 O ring material when I have finished.
Based on the loss formula I come to the conclusion that it would take 50 CC of distilled water per cell, so I have them on an equalization charge at 32 volts per four batteries, and am adding 10 CC at a time to each cell doing it slowly to allow time for the water to soak into the cell pack, so far so good, I can actually see down through the little hole and see the water sitting on top of the permeable membrane so when that disappears I add another 10 CC, so far so good. I am getting a slight gassing from all cells. When I started the voltage went up to 33.5 volts, now after 2 days it has dropped to 31.5 across all the 5 battery packs, indicating I believe that the batteries are taking a charge better now. I will check each battery for even voltages tomorrow to see if there are any low ones. So far I have put 30 CC in each cell and it has all soaked through the permeable membrane, so I will have to go to town and get some more distilled water.
Based in the condition of the plates in the wrecked batteries there should be plenty of life left in them, that is the ones with some moisture in them not the dried out ones as the outer bars of the cell pack are badly corroded, but even so the inner parts are not to bad, if the case hadn't split open I think they are usable, but now will end up as fishing sinkers. It looks like a pure lead battery isn't as susceptible to corrosion as some of the alloyed cell plate grids.
Ongoing saga, I hope to get some more life out of these packs till I save enough to go to NIFE cells. Number one bank is still working OK as far as I can see, but will pull it down and re hydrate it over the next couple of weeks, big job as it has 32 batteries in it.
All the best
BobFoolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 08:06pm 21 Oct 2014
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Hi All
I finally got my camera to work so took a few pics so you know what I am talking about.
This is the collection of batteries that I think I can save there is 24 of them connected in series parallel for 24 volt nominal.
This is the valve chamber on the battery that I chiseled off to see if I could do anything with them.
Here is the burst case where the sulphation built up on the end of the plates, this cell was still working with residual moisture in the middle of the plate pack but was not salvageable.
Looking from the side of the battery you can see the split case where the sulphation had built up.
If you look closley you can see the 3/16" holes I drilled through the top pf the case to get water into the cell packs that had not ruptured.
All the best
Bob
Foolin Around
Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462
Posted: 12:11am 22 Oct 2014
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I would not give up just because case exploded.
I would put battery into bigger box, pour some solution close to what acid percentage concentration should be and see if battery can be charged again.
Could be silly proposal and against science of batteries, but in bush repairs when you don't replace things you might try to patch things up not conventional way.
(Probably not similar problem, but I just put some water into my slightly dried up AGM battery a year or so ago and it is still limping along.)
George
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 01:45am 22 Oct 2014
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Hi George
There are four of the five batteries that still work showing 6.5 volts although they are split so I will take your suggestion and try to save them, I am going shopping tomorrow so will get a tube of silicone and seal up the splits and make them into a separate 24 volt 125 AH pack.
I was thinking along these lines before but have been so busy trying to save the un split ones that I ignored the possibility of saving these ones, because they are absorbed matt cells the electrolyte is still in them as damp in the matt and sulfate around the edges so if I can seal them up and slowly reconstitute the sulfate there may be a chance of making something useful.
i will let you know how it goes.
All the best
Bob
Foolin Around
isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303
Posted: 04:14am 22 Oct 2014
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Bob
We have used liquid tape the 3 m kind to seal leaks up in battery's.
You might want to make a drill template to drill those holes.
If I can get it up loaded I have a picture of Bub's solar rack. we just took panels he already had and put them all on one rack.
In our area one needs both wind and solar .
We still have room for some more panels.
The last battery I wrote about here we put lead acid back in it and it still acts funny it will charge and you think its coming then it will drop to 4 volts or so.
I do have a lawnmower battery that may come out of it this one sat for around 20 yrs and was dry and I just added rain water and charging.
If it gets a little better Ill hook it to my backup generator for starting.
I can start it with a rope but its getting to be a bit much for a old guy.
Everything is creeping up the lp gas grid electric phone bill and all. they stick these little add on's on your bi;ll and my $25.00 phone bill is now $41.00 with all the taxes and add on's on a phone line they put in used 40 yrs ago.!!!
Isaiah
URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL>
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 01:20pm 22 Oct 2014
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Hi Isaiah
I will try to get some of that tape when I go shopping today, but I haven't seen it here in the shops I have used a 2 part epoxy putty in the past but these cracks are a bit big for that.
Your battery sounds like it has shorted cells, I am just playing with one like that at the moment and I found that banging it with a hammer has removed the short, I got it bubbling vigorously with 32 volts then hit it with a hammer all around the case, it is still on the charger at the moment and now all cells are showing signs of activity. If one cell isn't bubbling that is a good place to give it a good banging.
Bub's solar array looks like a good start but it will need to grow to produce useful power. Try to save up to buy one panel each month and they will soon build into a worthwhile array.
I know what you mean about the cost of everything going up it is getting a real battle just to pay the essentials, the companies have got onto the add service charges and access fees to get around increasing base unit prices, now my feed in grid solar only covers the new access fees they are charging.
Good luck with your little battery.
All the best
BobEdited by VK4AYQ 2014-10-23Foolin Around
isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303
Posted: 03:10pm 22 Oct 2014
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Bob ,
You might want to use a heat gun to warp some of those cases back where they were they heaved . Or cut a patch out of a junk battery and glue it in.
I used my big electric soldering iron on one and used some scrap plastic to close the hole. just about liker soldering only use plastic.
The old electric soldering irons I don't pass them up at yard sales for a dollar or two. they work good to solder a gas tank also.URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL>
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 10:19am 23 Oct 2014
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Hi Isaiah
I will give the heat gun a try today if I can find some compatible plastic, I have a few old batteries to choose from.
I picked up some ALUM when I went shopping yesterday to have a play with some other old batteries and 3 gallons of distilled water.
The original battery rescue batteries 150 AH that went dead look like candidates for the experiment, I hooked them up to the welder and have got all the cells bubbling evenly again, i will leave them on charge for a couple of days to try to convert as much sulfate back to acid and lead, them give them a flush and the baking soda treatment, nothing to loose as they where going for sinkers anyway.
All the best
Bob
Foolin Around
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 01:30pm 24 Oct 2014
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Hi Isaiah
The heat gun was a moderate success I managed to salvage four more cases that where holding 6.5 volts per battery, the plastic gave me some trouble as when I put the heat on it it bubbled up and became porous so had to smooth it around with a screwdriver, it doesn't look neat but so far it is holding, I think I will coat it with some epoxy that is used for sealing fuel tanks in planes in case the porous parts leak later on.
So far I have got the whole bank up to 31,5 volts and am aiming for 32 volts, I will hold at that for a week to fully equalize the cells, there is some slight gassing at the moment but as I can now add more water that's not a problem, so far I have added 6 liters of distilled water and it will be more by the time it's finished equalizing.
While that is sitting bubbling I will have a go at some alum batteries.
All the best
Bob
Foolin Around
isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303
Posted: 02:51pm 24 Oct 2014
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Let us know how the Alum works.
How much Alum are you going to add to the water?
Bub and I mixed it up in a blender and added all the alum the water would desolve.
Maybe we put too much Alum in?
My little battery went open cerket so another for the junk man.
URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL>
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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