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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Battery Rescue?
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Rastus Guru  Joined: 29/10/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 301 |
Hi Bob, I don't visit the forum very often these days because of poor health, so I'm sorry to hear that you've been interrupted by health problems. Hope you are on the up and up! Reviving dead batteries and stimulating another 4 years out of them is a fantastic result. Well done! 
King regards Rastus see Rastus graduate advise generously |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Rastus It is a bugger when all your get up and go has got up and went, but by avoiding doctors as much as possible I am improving slowly, sorry to hear you are also suffering ill health as well and hope you are on the mend a bit, it's a problem with getting older that we still want to do everything but when we look at it all seems to hard. I have had the desulphator on the two dead batteries all day today and they are floating at 26.5 volts now and still absorbing 5 amps, so it will be interesting to see if they can be brought back a second time, when I started charging them they where down to 5 volts and 4 volts respectively and been sitting at that for a month but I thought I would give them a try as they are to heavy to carry to the dead battery department (scrap heap) will trickle them for a week with the desulphator and see how they go. If they seem worthwhile I will reconnect them to the pump and maintain a trickle as I have found if they work a bit they come up better. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Hi Bob & Rastus, Its good to see some activity here and hope both of your health problems get better soon, Here we try to eat the best foods that are non gmo and take some supplements to replace what is not in the soil and crops any more. We also have a very good friend that is a N.D., These other doctors are just practising selling pills!!! One of the two 1000 amphr tractor batters I got about the same time as Bob got his is still going. The other battery's we tried to convert to Alum Have not done well you could run some small leds but they wont start a vehicle.Maybe we haven't discovered the right process Bub and I have drifted off a little restoring some old desk fans. Those old fan's are better than what one can buy in the china mart stores today. Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Isaiah Thanks for the good thoughts re health I too am trying to get as much natural medicine as possible and it seems to be helping. Good to hear your battery is still going to, I have been reading a book on battery management and it brings up a lot of good information on FLA batteries and says that a heavy duty battery should last 15 years if looked after properly even car batteries can go for seven years on his system not so successful on GEL and sealed batteries due to the electrolyte drying out over the period of time, so much for maintenance free you get convenience but not longevity. I know what you mean about Chinese plastic fans they seldom last more than a year or two. Some of the old GE fans are still going after fifty years. I had a look at the alum battery situation and cannot see any merit in it unless you start with a new battery. My choice of batteries at the moment is a nickle Iron type as they last a long time and are nearly indestructible but cost is the problem due to low production, weight is also a problem but not for primary batteries in a solar fixed location. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| dwyer Guru Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 574 |
Hi BoB your question My choice of batteries at the moment is a nickle Iron type so anyway ido you have any ideas where l able to buy nickle iron batteries and have you work with these batteries in the past?? Other question is about myself as l am in same boat as you bob It is a bugger when all your get up and go has got up and went, but by avoiding doctors as much as possible I am improving slowly, sorry to hear you are also suffering ill health as well and hope you are on the mend a bit, it's a problem with getting older that we still want to do everything but when we look at it all seems to hard becauce my arthritis got worst over the time since i was assault several months ago, So anyway i still got my modifies Oil cool windmill (Film mann) still sitting on 13 metre tower running since 2010 never came down for any maintennace yet so now due for batteries replacement . all the best Dwyer  |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Dwyer I will include a file on Nife batteries I contacted the company in China making them and they said they have an Australian agent but I have lost the address for them. They are expensive for a good sized bank but ate nearly indestructible, I am saving for a set now, but at nearly $15,000 it will take a while, I do not know how much longer my present lead acid set will last but hoping for another couple of years. http://www.australianenergystorage.com.au/site/wp-content/up loads/2014/04/Changhong-long-life-Nife-cell-catalogue.pdf I had a set of batteries in victoria they where from an old government building that was being demolished, they where over 50 years old and with a flush and new electrolyte they where as good as new, but to heavy to bring when I shifted to QLD. I have had several small sets ex PMG exchange when they upgraded to computer exchanges but at the time I didn't have solar so sold them on (what a fool me) I have looked at LIPO4 batteries to they are cheaper but have some issues with equalization yet to be resolved fully, but are cheaper and according to specs should last 15 years and are a lot lighter, Have a look at Trevs site on the forum for details, a good set of deep cycle batteries FLA type should last for 15+ years if oversized to maintain a 50% maximum discharge about half the price of LIPO batteries and one third the price of NIFE cell battery. The main reason I am looking at Nife cells is if I kick the bucket the wife can keep using them without the hassles of the other types as I am sure that she would stuff up the others in a short time. I think with management the FLA is the choice as I used to do the management on farm power sets years ago and some of the sets where over 20 years old and still going. Sorry to hear you are having health problems too one of the things from getting older I will send you some details of what I found helps me with arthritis on PM. Good to hear you mill is still going well, mine got a bent mast in a storm several years ago and I still haven't fixed it due to not feeling well enough, but it is still putting out 39 amps in a good blow from the south east, terrific little machine but I am going to redo the furling when I take it down. I am drooling at the new ones Phill is doing now and will get one or two when funds allow. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Progress report After 2 days on the desulphator battery number one is sitting at 13.2 volts resting voltage but still low on capacity as it struggles to run the pump at 15 amp draw. Battery two is a bit sad it is resting at eleven volts and just runs the pump so I believe it has one debilitated cell as one cell is hardly bubbling, early days yet though, I will persist with it for a couple of weeks. I have the charger running at float voltage at the moment 5 amp input, but once they get a bit more capacity I will go to boost voltage 33 volts and 15 amps input for a day or so and see if that helps. It is a rebuilt Chinese charger so no regulation to speak of just keep an eye on the voltage. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Hi Bob and all. Yes Bub and I kind of give up on the alum conversion. I did discover that I have some old lawn tractors in a shed and had 4 battery's left in them must be around 20 yrs . I pulled them out and none were cracked but low on fluid so we started hydrating them . I have one of the 4 that may start my back up generator, its a old 10 hp Briggs and Stratton, The battery has been hooked to my solar dump load and a 2 amp trickle charger. We did hear that Tesla motors and Panasonic have plans to make battery's for the E.V. S! If this happens it will help bring the price down. With the hard time we aren't finding the downer battery's to work on. The power company's are still trying every trick in the books and then some to raise the cost of commercial electric power, It looks like this is going on all over. Bub has discovered he can get by with a couple old fans and when the Humidity gets to hi then he runs the air conditioner just long enough to pull the humidity down. The old fans will pull the cold air out of the heat runs after the A.C.is shut off . The old Emerson fans are good and quiet also, They have a hollow tapered shaft pressed in the housing with slots cut for oil then the rotor has a mating hollow shaft that goes over that and has a taper,they then run in a oil bath if maintained they should run several life times and don't draw to many amps off the inverter. On a off subject note we haven't seen the moon here for about two weeks. The weather has been erratic all yr. Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Isaiah Thinking back to my early days of playing with batteries, I tried all sorts of electrolytes and found that most will give some electrical energy, but the sulfuric acid lead combination was the best overall for energy conservation and power out around 90 % of power in to power out, we made some spiral wound cells like has become the fashion now with rolls of flashing lead and fiber glass cloth as a separator that was the best result we had but in those days it was cheaper to buy a battery than to try to re invent the wheel. Talking of quality of the old batteries, I bought a 1932 Buick straight eight sedan off a farmer who had it sitting in a shed for 20 years it had an old wood cased battery, the original battery in it, anyway I put some petrol in it and did a but of a service. carby ,clean points and plugs put some water in the battery as it looked dried out and jumped started it and drove it home, to my amazement when I got home it would start on it's own battery, the battery must have been 30 years+ old and had sat for the previous 20 years in the shed. My friend pulled some old open lead acid batteries out of a telephone exchange he got the job to demolish, he showed me the old logs from the service book and they where over forty years old and still working, huge lead plates and wood separators, he said each cell was over 3 tons {scrappy heaven} I hope the Tesla / Panasonic moves the LIPO battery forward as they have a lot of advantages but at the moment consistency and reliability are a bit of an issue, as at he expense of them, you need 20 years to justify them, and at that they would probably out live me anyway, the big problem I see is the need for electronics to maintain cell balance and as we know electronic components have a limited service life. To try to train my wife to read a voltmeter and switch on the battery charger is nearly impossible, if she had to do anything to maintain a battery bank if I couldn't would result in a marital meltdown or nervous breakdown. That's why I am leaning toward NIFE cell battery bank. Sounds like you and BUB should be playing with a geo-thermal heating cooling set up, my friend has one on his house and it keeps the house between 20 and 25 degrees C summer and winter, with good insulation of course, however our climate is a bit milder than your location. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Few days old link and doesn't work already. I noticed that it is not bad idea to place link and copy of some interesting suff from that link. Otherwise our Forum pages get out of date in no time at all. I would like to get the set of Edison batteries, but cost sounds prohibitive. George |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
www.ironcorebatteries.com.auwww.ironcorebatteries.com.au Try this link as it works on my computer but the other one did to maybee its me stuffing up Bob Foolin Around |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Bob and all The geo-thermal heating cooling set up would be the same for Bub and me as it would out last us and beyond funds at this time. If we were younger we would be looking hard at it. Btw the weather has been very erratic up here all year. when it warmed this spring it got hot then when you had a cool day it was down near freezing then a lot of rain then it would dry out a lot of garden plants burnt up. some of my herb plants are coming back to life at this time. It's to the point if one wants to garden you almost need to do it in a controlled environment, year round green house. Glad we lived when we did. Isaiah URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Isaiah It is unfortunate that we have to scale our projects to our projected life expectancy but in this system that is the unfortunate reality, I have the same issue when looking at the purchase of NIFE cell battery bank for my system as I know it will outlast me for years but looking at the issue of battery toughness and the projected abuse my wife will give it after I am gone I think it is the way to go. While it is fun to play with lead acid batteries and revive scrapped ones my wife couldn't be expected to survive with a system based on uncertain battery life. My friend just installed a battery powered geothermal system on his house for total cost of $300 dollars using some gear he had around and a bit of scrounging, the most expensive part was the roll of 1.5 inch poly pipe he buried as a collector and a box of stubbies to the back hoe driver to dig the channel for the pipe a the rest was a small 12 volt water pump from Fleabay and he is pressing his solar panel for camping into service and an old battery He got from the tire service. he said it will pay for itself in one year of saved invisible gold (electricity). I introduced him to the desulphator a couple of years ago and he is now resurrecting all sorts of batteries for himself family and friends, I think he has a deal with the tire service for their trade in batteries as well and he said he will have enough to power up his little solar system by Xmas. I to have suffered the weather extreams here as last year in spring it got so hot that all the young fruit fell off the trees cooked and it is nearly impossible to grow in the open as the heat kills my plants need a shade house hot house to i think and lots more water. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Thank you, link works well. Pity that price is open-ended. I would much prefer to be able to know end price in Australian Dollars. Suppose one day somebody will set up distributin in Australia, but hate to think what the retail price could be. George |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi George Money is always a problem and stops us doing the best thing at times, the cheapest way is most always the most expensive in the long run Looking at the capacity is a bit deceiving though, as from what I have found the 500 AH Nife cell pack is about equivalent to a 1200AH FLA set when you look at the discharge limitations of a FLA set at forty percent for long life, 10 years plus of the bank capacity is in reality FLA 480 AH. Considering 10 years life as compared to 30 years plus for the NIFE Bank the Nife set is a bit cheaper compared to three sets of FLA cells. I know that the point can be made that you have extra reserve capacity for emergencies with FLA bank but at the consequence of shortening the life span of the bank, when FLA sets where built like a tank in the old days this was not a concern as they where designed to take this abuse but these days the lead acid cells available are much less robust and unless you can lay your hands on a Mil spec set we are limited to inferior cells still labeled deep cycle, have a read of battery specs and you will find that most only allow for 800 cycles over 30 percent discharge. These days with the low relative cost of solar panels it is possible to put a few extra panels in the array to make up for cloudy weather, in the old days we didn't have that luxury. To my understanding NIFE cells do not have a cycle limit built in if properly serviced and I know of some sets that are over fifty years old and still working at capacity. Modern day cells made in China do have a question of quality built in but once the technology is sound but the QC may get in the way. The LIPO banks are yet to be time proven in my opinion, while being able to be discharged to 80 plus percent they are a real bonus as bank size can be reduced on the same reasoning as mentioned for the NIFE cells, there is the issue of balancing with deeper discharge and I have witnessed the failure of a number of cell prematurely in electric cars where a heavy load and discharge are placed on them, no doubt they will improve with time and development and i look forward to that. A 500AH bank should perform as well as a 500 AH NIFE cell bank but when you look at the time life factor there is a question mark. My choice at the moment is a 500AH NIFE cell battery bank augmented with a set of ultracaps as a charge, discharge buffer to make them match the characteristics of a LIPO bank, yes they are more expensive, but looking at the life of the bank they in my opinion work out cheaper, others will dispute and I think a discussion on the subject would be beneficial to all of us, comments please! A good place to start would be a low power bank say 20 or 40 AH and play with it, and see what can be accomplished with a minimal bank and and a couple of panels, some ultracaps and you will be amazed what you can do, in the old days that's all we had and we made it work for us and amazed the neighbors. Maybe some enterprising person or company in Australia may start making the NIFE cells as it is lo tech and an easy with no patent problems. That would solve the banana republic dollar exchange rate problem. Another possibility is to get a cooperative going to purchase direct from the makers on our terms, bears thinking about. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I had a call from a friend down south about my last battery posting, he fitted solar nearly six years ago and is very happy with the set up however he had a set of 1000AH 48 volt deep cycle batteries that cost $6,000 when installed, they failed this year, so didn't quite make the six year mark, they where going to cost $9000 to replace so he has fitted a NIFE cell bank 800 AH, that cost him $18000 and he said all is going well with the setup as it should be, he liked the suggestion of fitting a set of ultracaps to take the initial power surge of some thing he is doing and has ordered a set. He has allowed a 20 year life for the NIFE batteries as he had a smaller set on a backup power supply that where still going after 30 years and they where second hand when he fitted them, ex PMG I think. He was lucky to have some super to pay for the cells so that wasn't the issue, but he told me that he bought a new car also, a Holden Commodore cost $40K plus on the road and he went on to say the care costs $7500 a year to own, ( Insurance, Registration, Petrol and maintenance) He also said that in six years time he expects it to depreciate to $10K a loss of $30K Makes his battery bank seem a lot cheaper. He is an accountant and does everything by the numbers and he said the batteries are saving him $3200 a year on present electricity prices and he feel it can only go up in the future, his prediction based on forward estimated is the saving will be around $7000 a year in five years time. Sometimes we need to think in numbers as he said the investment in the batteries is four times better than the interest he would have got on his super for the that amount Makes you think. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
I take that his 800 Ah bank is 48 V If they are 800 Ah each, there are 40 of them. Correct? George |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi George Correct, to my understanding there are 40 cells @ 1.2 volts each, for 48 volt system, he was able to reduce the AH requirement because of the deeper discharge capability of the NIFE cells compared to the flooded Lead Acid cells. He said the Nife Cell pack weighed nearly half the weight of the FLA cells it replaced, as a point of interest he has fitted desulphators on the old bank of cells and noted a useful increase in capacity so they have been put back into service on a less critical house supply and are handling the task, he feels if he had the desulphators on the bank it would have lasted longer. The solar regulator he has is a good one Australian designed and it gives an equalization charge at 62 volts each charge cycle so it should have been OK but the depth of discharge I think was the problem in this case as he was discharging to 80% at times. He told me that the only disadvantage of the Nife cells seems to be a bit more voltage sag when starting heavy loads, maybe due to a bit higher internal resistance, I have suggested a set of supercapacitors for starting surge and he is going to try those and let me know how it goes. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Hi Bob, All sounds great, nice he has pocket deep enough to get it. Super capacitors are another thing that soud fantastic, but scares me fact that it is so easy to kill them. George |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi George The supercaps frighten me a bit by the price, the equalization issue is not so bad now as a few members have solved the problem. Phill has used them on his system albeit for a different reason and his still going I believe, you could also use a large quantity of conventional electros for a starting kick a bit like a starter cap on an induction motor. He has the money and a professional helper ex client in the electronic field so I am waiting for a report on their work in a few months. Supercaps are used extensively in electric cars so they may be a useful tool in our systems, I read an article last week where they are now experimenting with hemp fiber as a component to make supercaps cheaper and more reliable. We look to the future for development of a number of innovations in battery and storage systems that would benefit our little systems. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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