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oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 12:35am 05 Sep 2009
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Interesting. It looks likely that 3.6m blades may do away with the series caps all together, and increase your low wind performance dramatically... furling needs to be tight then though or overheat becomes a distinct possibility.
That stator in a light wind area would do well with 3.6m direct coupled (and perhaps boost caps too). Would not be the best combo over here though.
Well tested.
.........oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 02:06am 05 Sep 2009
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Thanks oztules,
have pretty well finished testing. Will put on the swish blades when they are finished. Power output starts at 70rpm. Trickle charging works well into my 24V house battery bank. Up to half an amp. Most of the power goes directly to the 48V grid inverter though. I can't go bigger, as would need to relocate too many things. More than happy with system now. The dull whirr sound most of the time is a non intrusive indicator of power production. I hear the sound, and look outside to see no trees moving. Can't complain about producing electricity from just a breath of wind. I have seen the blades stop for a few minutes since the mill has flown.
I will probably still make the temp sensing telemetry. Stator Heating will always come up as problamatic unless data is obtained to make an informed judgement. This mill is so docile with the furling, that I don't ever see heating as a problem. If I went for the big numbers and changed the furling it may be.
I have designed this mill for the wind distribution at my home, and the storms that pass 15-20times a year are not worth persuing economically. I may investigate if I am given some components to test with. I don't have the 5kW grid inverter or dump loads for major testing. Probably would need a bigger house as well.
Any future large scale testing will need to wait until state gridfeed legislation is changed to allow wind to be gridfed like solar.
Need some warmer weather so I can finish some blades.
Gordon.
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 06:53am 18 Sep 2009
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New AxFx mill has stopped a couple of times in no wind conditions in the last few weeks. Only briefly, for 1-2 hours. The power produced ranges from 0.2-0.5kWh/day on calm days and up to 3.5-4kWhr on average windy days[so far up to 8hours in a stretch]. Furling is still very soft, so I am not planning on breaking any records.
I have revised the piclog program and sorted the current and rpm measurements. I have added a kWhr calculator in the graphing window. I can go back through all my data and calculate the daily, or special interest portion kWhr. I am planning on publishing a small program[piclog viewer] that does not need COMMs, and that resides in the same folder as the piclog program. This will display a list of all piclog *.txt files in the logs folder, and allow graphical viewing with mouse click file selection, and kWhr calculations. Will run it past Gizmo.
I will post some example graphs from interesting days.
Gordon.
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 04:21am 21 Sep 2009
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I have finally replaced the Velleman software on my original 4channel logger with my own application. The Velleman program was OK for short logging periods, with logging intervals as short as 100readings/sec, but suffered from no logical filing and data storage system. The data was only logged to disk when the STOP recording button was presssed. I lost a lot of data with computer freeze as the RAM filled up.
I now have 4 logging apps, all working together on the one PC. All apps have a similar user interface and graphing data display windows. At the moment I will keep the programs separate, as to not make an elephant. I will eventually be able to write a program to combine all the data into a single database. I have settled on a 10sec logging period, so combining data sets will be easier.
Hopefully any data loss will now only be human error.
Now for another project.
Gordon.
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 02:32am 02 Mar 2010
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My latest AxFx mill is finally coming along. I have concluded the latest coil testing, and the 75turns, 0.18ohms per coil produce 3.5VAC @ 60RPM. This gives 10.5VAC per phase. In a star config, this should be 17.8VAC. 52V cutin on the Latronics should be about 130RPM. May still be a little low RPM, but I want to try a normal stator config, without caps. The output wave shape is a good sine wave, so there is potential for a delta config as well.
I have made a reusable moulding system, and this will make it easier to cast a new stator. I will have two similar alternator units, and I hope to be able to compare changes.
Gordon.
PS: I have 3D CAD modelled the new unit, so I can post some pics if required.
Here is a fully assembled view.
Here is a pic of the output waveform.
Edited by GWatPE 2010-03-03become more energy aware
KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178
Posted: 04:23am 02 Mar 2010
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Speaking of state feed in legislation for wind vs solar.
In Vic you can apply for a dispensation
A) to go for larger than the published max 5KW
B) To use wind power in liu of solar power.
My Retailer is Happy BUT .....
SP AUSNET, the provider / operator of the grid would like to know a make and model number of the turbine before they will grant approval to grid feed. (even though I'm technically allowed to do in the "Testing phase")
I think I'll call it a windfun FP600W
(idea from solarfun panels + Fisher & Paykel 600W)
FP obviously being for fisher and paykel and 600 given that it makes theoretical as far as they are concerned 600W at 9m/s.....
(I have 4.2KW+ of solar and must be under the 5KW max)
thus no point calling it a 1KW mill as I'd have problems and arguements.Edited by KarlJ 2010-03-03Luck favours the well prepared
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 04:51am 02 Mar 2010
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Hi Karl,
I don't think you need to just add stuff to a thread, just because it is up the top of the list.
maybe you should have posted your message somewhere else, that is relevant, or in a new thread!!
Gordon.become more energy aware
KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178
Posted: 11:45am 02 Mar 2010
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I was commenting on your previous post about grid feed legislation and how you can get around it.
you said "
Any future large scale testing will need to wait until state gridfeed legislation is changed to allow wind to be gridfed like solar "
I also pointed out that the grid supplier will want to know a turbine make and model before approving its connection to the grid in some states even though you and I both know it will not make a scrap of difference.
Hope that clears up your confusion (and helps you out)Edited by KarlJ 2010-03-03Luck favours the well prepared
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 02:11pm 02 Mar 2010
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Hi Karl,
If you comment on a particular point, then it is a good practice to quote it. Saves confusion.
Legislation differs from state to state as you are aware, and I have no intention of moving, so I am stuck with current legislation and PV. You can export wind energy, but credits of the 44c/unit would not apply.
I will continue to use the power from the stored energy in the battery. Gives me free energy to test the LiPo cells with as well.
Gordon.
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178
Posted: 02:39pm 02 Mar 2010
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how can they tell the difference?
"export" all your PV and run the house off the wind?
I'm sure you would be able to get a dispo to get the FIT for the wind too.
My guy claims to be able to get dispo's for 10KW turbines connected to the grid and getting FIT.
seems no reason why state to state wouldnt have similar process -stranger things have happened.
Could build the monster AXFX!Luck favours the well prepared
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686
Posted: 06:30pm 02 Mar 2010
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Well the waveform looks better than I had hoped for the magnet spacing.
Cut in looks good for low wind performance.
What does the stator mold look like?
......you sure you need 24 bolts to hold the plates on....
R is a little higher than I would have guessed.... although if you furl early, this may help low wind performance (softer on the TSR) perhaps.
...........oztulesVillage idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 12:31am 03 Mar 2010
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I was a little surprised as well. I had thought there would have been a little more flat topping. The coils are 2mm larger ID than the magnet OD. This has pushed the coil resistance up a bit. The stator should be able to be delta wired, so the resistance is looking pretty good for that.
The cut in is a little low, for a star connection, so I will look at delta. I will bring all the terminations out, so I can wire any way. Bring out the coloured wire.
A couple of concentric rings. I have a round steel plug, that was laser cut for the inner alignment point. bolted to a flat surface. A steel ring is placed around this, and this has small bolt holes to attach it with precision to the axle adapter plate. A larger ring is placed equally around the centre plug. This is also bolted to the flat surface.
The central thin ring can be bolted to the axle adapter plates to allow the main mounting bolt holes in the newly moulded stator to be accurately through drilled directly from the holes in the axle adapter ring. The thin, precisely drilled ring can be pushed out and reused for other stators.
This sounds a bit to do, but there is really only some thread tapping, as all the parts are laser cut, so a bit of filing, and polishing is all that should be needed. The important aspect is no additional machining should be needed to make more stators.
There are 12 x 4mm bolts on the rear plate, and 12 x 6mm bolts on the front plate, that bolt the magnet plates to the spacer ring. The front [blade mounting magnet plate] is bolted to the axle hub with 3 x 6mm bolts, and 3 x 10mm bolts. This is all that is left from the F&P mill. [The front plate, spacer ring, and axle, and bearing hub assembly].
Hopefully, the only machining that needs to be done in a complete unit, is in the spacer, and the surface that is welded to the axle to mount the stator assembly. I happen to mount the flat surface directly to my yaw box, so adapter spacers are needed to position the stator between the magnet rings, to suit the internals and the bearing hub, for clearance. I hope to test with thicker magnets and other stators, and should only need some additional adapters laser cut. No additional machining.
Anyone with good access to a machine shop would probably go about this differently.
I will probably be able to wind the coils with 2 in hand, of the wire I have. There appears to be more wire space, now that the magnets are placed at a larger dia, and the total turns is down to a manageable number.
This is all good to lower resistance. 15mm mags will help again one day.
I would like to make some coils that are multi layer. I like the idea of 2 layers of wire coils, that are wound from the inside out, so both ends are terminated at the outside of the coil. This produceds non polarized coils. This will prevent the bunching of the wire that seems to be unavoidable when the coils are wound back and fourth to the outside. I think that very precise coils could be made, with possibly layers of glass between.
These are some aspects that I can try, once I have a flying windmill that is adaptable. I will need another set of magnets to leave on my test unit, to continue testing. The final alternator will still only be matched to my blades, and loading, when it flies, but at least other configs can be worked out to suit other loadings, and blades.
Gordon.
Edited by GWatPE 2010-03-04become more energy aware
JimBo911 Senior Member Joined: 26/03/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 262
Posted: 02:55am 03 Mar 2010
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Gordon
The F&P mill that I fly now is based upon your design. I am very pleased with it's strength, reliability and performance.
I would be more them happy to repeat (copy) your newest axial alternator into one of my own.
Your design engineering is far superior than my own.
I do enjoy the machining work but then that's the easy part.
Looking forward to following your progress.
Yes more pics are required.
Great job keep up the good work.
Jim
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 04:35am 03 Mar 2010
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There is a prerequisite however of the lathe, mill, etc being at hand.
CAD software does allow a visualization of an idea, without having to make it first. The mouse makes a pretty reasonable cutting tool. It doesn't lose an edge, but the operator may require refreshments, sustanance, and rest to function well for extended periods.
I would be flattered it if there were many designs similar to mine, made, but would prefer a commercial type unit out there. There is a major leap from a F&P to one of these AxFx units.
I expect my testing will continue well into this year. fillm, can make you one of these units, similar to this, right now, and his work is top shelf. Readers interested in this design could contact Phill, as a first instance. If I publish too many specifics, then there will be less oportunity for a commercial venture. There are handbooks available to make AxFx windmills, and you should be able to make a start with one of these designs, if you plan to go it DIY.
I think the closed design is a bit beyond DIY.
Gordon.
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178
Posted: 04:54am 03 Mar 2010
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I can vouch for Phillm's workmanship.
I'm 150% happy with what I got.
Performance is about 14x greater than Phill expected
with the better wind site.
The output figures he has for expected performance of the AXFX with decent wind would be 20X better than his spot.
I'm still averaging (prior to the stator change and reduced offset) 3KW+ per day and I'm expecting this will jump to 5KW/day now the mods are done and she's making full whack.
SO for the AXFX in decent wind you're talking serious performance of 7-10KW/day.
May I also add that Phill is very flexible on your input
ie if you want to do some bits and pieces yourself, such as fitting up the magnets, tapping all the holes, final assembly etc the cost difference to full DIY would be negligible and you would end up with an awesome machine, without the trial and error that normally goes with this kind of thing.
You only need to check out the otherpower site to see how impressed / surprised they were with the Gordon/Phillm OZ-AX-FX.Luck favours the well prepared
JimBo911 Senior Member Joined: 26/03/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 262
Posted: 02:14pm 03 Mar 2010
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I have spent time reading about axial alternators on other forums and web sites.
I feel that most of these designs are flawed not because that they do not perform well (amps) but because most are open to the element of weather.
One of my earlier post (Early Christmas Present) shows just how nasty the weather at my location can get. Most if not all commercially built mills are enclosed.
Ahhhhh yes the need for more power goes on. Jim
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 03:36pm 03 Mar 2010
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Gordon, is this the coil winding method you are talking about?
Or is it some other way I don't know about yet?Klaus
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 11:25pm 03 Mar 2010
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Hi Tinker,
A bit hard to see from the pic. I am not new to this technique. I made my original overlapping/interleaved coils a long time ago, I will need to disect one I had spare, and see if the solid wire will work the same way. This is a long time project for me.
Gordon.become more energy aware
Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904
Posted: 03:09pm 04 Mar 2010
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Yes, unfortunately reducing the picture size also reduces the definition.
I made these coils some years ago when I started building a miniature AXFX. It was to be a triple rotor/ dual stator affair - unfortunately I got the coil connections wrong and they are all epoxy encapsulated. Project abandoned...
The coils were for 15mm dia neo magnets. Wire size is 1mm, coil thickness is only 2mm (2 layers). Winding is started from the middle of a pre cut piece of wire and requires a former like the one in the picture.
Your comment about "non polarized coils" with this technique has me wondering just what that means. Care to elaborate?Klaus
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127
Posted: 01:46am 11 Mar 2010
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The micro based boost MPPT has been a great success on my original windmill. I have a piclog and MPP boost controller in a single unit. Have decided to keep a separate windmill overvoltage shutdown for the moment.
I will be making a prototype BUCK style MPPT to test on my AxFx mill. This will allow me some testing prior to making a new stator. If the unit works as well as the boost cct, then the old stator can stay. I have not been very supportive of the BUCK configuration, due to the stresses placed on the electronic components.
My own AxFx mill produces approx 60VAC between phases at 200RPM. Cutin for the 48V system is around 120RPM. Unfortunately the load stalls the mill just after this. Series caps has overcome a lot of the loading issues. Optimum Max RPM is around 350RPM. this is about a loaded 150VDC. This means that the optimum pulsewidth would be need to range from around 100% at cutin to about 30% at full output. This is achievable. The battery will have to stay in this arrangement.
The maximum power will possibly be above the 2kW levels, so pulsewidth limiting may be needed to keep the top end in check, with stall limited output at around the 1kW level. The BUCK unit will need isolated sensing, so it won't be a walk in the park.46081.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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