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Forum Index : Solar : cost of solar vs coal
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yahoo2 Guru  Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
I spotted this graph today and had a little smirk to myself.  It shows a direct cost comparison of solar farms to old depreciated coal assets. What it fails to show is "behind the meter" solar. The fact that there is no network transport infrastructure cost to be paid on every kw that is generated where it is consumed. If we add $65 /MWh to all of those numbers for network charges then the larger behind the meter solar systems that are used to their capacity are level pegging or below existing black coal NOW. When the utilities add there profit margin solar is well below any of the grid power options. I also think their estimate of 15-22% capacity factor for solar is making some pretty poor assumptions, and that is that nothing will change the energy usage timing. The fact that most off gridders can easily get their direct panel use above 50% and 70% is possible with some trickery means that it should be reasonably easy for on grid systems to do the same or better. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
The politicians are sh*t scared of what will happen to the economy if the word gets out that coal is not cost effective. They are addicted to the export revenue and can't see past that. Remember recently a piece of coal was taken into parliament house and some of those idiots were saying coal is good. I wonder how much they make coal? QLD government is hell bent on getting the ardarni project up and running. This is despite the dubious financial structure of that company who also it is developing huge solar farms in India. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Yeah I've been watching the coal versus renewables debates in the media for many years, but in the last year its really taken off. If you look at the facebook pages of many politicians you quickly learn most of them really have no clue on the technical side of the subject, but that doesn't stop them posting rubbish comments on the subject, and they have a herd of dedicated followers who quickly jump on anyone who has a different view. This is on both sides of politics, no one side is better than the other in my view, they both spread misleading information. As a person who has lived off grid for 5 years, I can tell you renewable energy IS cheaper, AND more reliable, than coal power. But if you totally ignore the politicians, and instead look at industry and financial news, you get a better picture of whats really going on. Prices to install renewables has plummeted in recent years, while coal has not. Investment in renewables is growing fast, driven by industry and investors who are a lot smarter than your average politician. But coal is still reasonably cheap and the existing infrastructure does provide good base load. Gas is better, but gas mining and prices are more controversial than coal mining. Obviously in the future solar with battery/hydro storage ticks all the boxes, maybe a little wind thrown in to stir up the politicians. Its just a matter of time. We'll be mining coal for centuries, but for steel/plastics production, not energy. If I were a coal miner family living in Moranbah, I would be supporting coal, but I would be encouraging my kids to make other plans. If I were an investor, I would steer away from fossil fuels for long term investments. If I owned an engineering firm, I would be looking closer at manufacturing for agriculture, diversifying. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
No one is game to build a new coal fired power station and renewables are financially viable. What is propping up coal is the way retailers pay for power it is weighted in favour of coal. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Looks that other sources of electricity should not be pushed down our throats so hard. I have nothing against, however if you have to pay $500 or $700 for electricity when you have limited funds, some options are drastic. Not my word, but seen on TV about some older people, that they stay in bed until midday so they do not have to heat their place. Some heat, pay and save on food or some other pleasures of life. Strangely I hear that Japan, Germany have new coal fired stations in pipeline, somehow impossible to even think about it in Australia. Sitting on high horse feels great, but to pay for it is different story. Hope I will not be crucified for stepping out of consensus on this thread. George |
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| greybeard Senior Member  Joined: 04/01/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 161 |
The issue with the 'cost' of non renewable energy is that previous (and this) generation haven't been paying the real cost of using it. We've been borrowing from our children and grandchildren's future to subsidize our standard of living. Regardless of the arguments regarding global warming etc, we can't keep disposing of our unwanted byproducts by having them go 'away'. Whether that be up a chimney stack or into a green wheely bin. Eventually some poor (sic) bugger will be paying for it. Is the 'cost' that people are paying for grid electricity due to the actual costs involved in creating it or do we have issues with the manner in which we generate and distribute that energy. Things change over time and the technology of running wires on poles everywhere may be getting past its use by date. And the concept of an energy regulator allowing suppliers to increase their tariff to cover, perhaps, the cost of a shiny plated distribution network, may be something that needs to be challenged. |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
What is wrong with putting a few more clothes on instead of cranking up the heating? Electricity prices are where they are due to the politicians and the one who came out saying renewables will kill people this winter is full of BS. Mankind survived until recent years without coal fired heating. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
I agree greybeard, energy has been very cheap for many decades. Today we complain if heating our entire home costs more than $1 a day, where a couple of generations ago heating a home meant someone had to spend 15 minutes cutting firewood every day and the family sitting around the fireplace at night. Yes, it was normal to wear 5 layers of clothes inside the house. We complain about the cost of fuel for our vehicle, but we still buy the big 4WD for diving the kids to school. If fuel actually was expensive, we would all be driving around in 3 cylinder compact cars. Fact is, energy has been cheap for many decades, and we've grown accustomed to that. As for the elderly, yes something needs to be done to help them. I do notice when the media visit some elderly person complaining of heating costs, you see incandescent light bulbs still in use, a electric bar heater, and other wasteful energy drains. A few LED bulbs, reverse cycle air conditioning, and better building insulation would quickly drop their energy costs, and maybe this is where government could help. I live happily on less than 5kWh a day, easy, $1 a day if I was grid connected. My 75+ year old mother lives in a small cottage in Tasmania on a rural property, and uses less electricity that I do, and she is more than happy with her comfortable little home and at no risk of freezing to death. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
That would actually be $2 a day to live off the grid once you include the service charges you now have to pay also. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Service charge! Man I'm glad I'm off grid. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
It is over 30 cent per KWH now too so that would be getting closer to $2.50 ATM I have a 1.5 KW grid connected solar system and the whopping 6 cents per KWH from it does not cover the service charge. Soon I will be moving and will be saying goodbye to the grid completely, only physical connection to the rest of the world will the road to get there the rest will be radio waves. They can stick their power bills where the sun does not shine. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Its fine George On the power stations dont forget china they have built 100 new ultra high tech power stations, matter of fact they are the only ones in the world of that sophistication, however they have clearly stated they are twice as expensive to run and will be shut down when their renewables catch up to demand. Germany have some newer ones, however they are all foreign owned and none of them sell power into Germany itself. I think there are quite a few that are technically approved but unlikely to ever be built. We have had some really solar good options aimed at retirees here and supported by local govt, it has meant a lot of people have got systems with no upfront costs and discounted power prices for 7 years. I am hoping some energy aggregator/brokers will start offering some local energy deals that match up solar systems with no contracted feed in tariff payments with local users on a group buy deal. I have had a couple of friends trialing some far infra red heat panels on a solar power diversion manager this winter it is still early days but it is looking encouraging and very cheap. I am expecting a couple of new companies to come out with some finance deals for solar and solar plus batteries. So stuff is starting to happen again. Unfortunately the price of batteries is way too high ATM, plenty of price gouging happening while they are flavour of the year. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1022 |
Well i don't believe energy to be that cheap if you consider the cost of living is far to high anyway, and higher wages just makes everything more expensive by a percentage, so much worse overall. with coal many people have to pay for the GREED of just a few or even just 1 greedy person that owns a mine or a power company, as always the end user has to pay the price. Yep us and our kids future is stuffed. If this QLD Premier (called it many other names) was made accountable and personal responsibility for the financial loss to the tax payer and environmental damage incurred when things go ars up with adarni, I bet it would change its tune a bit. I feel like we pay the price so some other country can have it cheap battery storage can be made at a fair price that would be affordable for most offgrid or ongrid applications however the price goes up due to the middle man (more than one) import duty, tax and what ever els the can bung on. (more greed) A few years ago on a TV documentary somewhere in Europe there was a pilot plant built, it was used to convert the excess solar and wind power into gas that was then stored in a large tank during the day. At night the gas is used in a gas turbine to produce power and feed back to the grid, the process of converting the power into clean gas was not that efficient but that didn't matter because there was plenty of it. we have gas turbines already and at times excess renewable energy, this system could work as a battery supplying renewable energy at night, help supply the base load. Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Using coal at the age, that we are close to getting inexpensive energy storage and ever dropping price of renewable energy isn't robbing our kids and grandkids of anything. If we let ourselves to do change sensibly, it will not be such a financial burden. It is highly unlikely that our grandkids will have need to use coal. So they will not miss coal that we used before change of technology. It is just crafty way to make us feel guilty and make us spend more money that we need. George |
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| greybeard Senior Member Joined: 04/01/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 161 |
If your reply is to my post about future issues then you've missed my point. It isn't the use of the coal that's the major issue, it's what's left after it's been used that will impact our children and grandchildren. Same concerns for any of the non-renewable resources we use today. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Didn't reply to your post. Also if timber is renewable resource, in my books coal is too. It only takes longer to get there. Not to mention that quite a few countries are OK to increase their pollution until about 2030 while we have to cut 25% right now. So it will not be what's left from what we do, but from what they do while we destroy our pockets. George |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
And this one is my last post here. George |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
And this is why I usually frown on these sort of conversations on the forum. Politics, religion and the big climate warming fossil fuel debate, guaranteed to stir the pot. Georgen your views and comments are as welcome and respected as anyone elses. There are many sides to this discussion. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
I do worry that this is our moment in the sun, the one time that the little guy counts and we are going to blow it by sitting on our hands and doing nothing. Net metering, home and small business self generated solar and off-grid systems for people in the back blocks are critical for the viability of hundreds of local communities. Anything that imposes additional costs and red tape directly on us will disadvantage our families directly. No politician, lobbyist or CEO is even remotely aware of us having a moan in our little corner of the internet. I would encourage you all to consider doing something proactive in your community and posting about that so we can follow your example or lend some support You could join a group of like minded people and make a point of booking appointments with local politicians and candidates and explaining directly to them your frustration and disappointment. Possibly giving them some pointers on how tenuous their re-election could be if you campaign against them. As a group you could also explore some different options for energy providers, some members might like to choose a company like Energy locals that kick back a few bucks into the group. Active groups are usually contacted first if there is a subsidised trial or a new offer coming out or perhaps new tech. If you are investing in shares, dont discount Clean Tech stocks. Many of them have performed well beyond the rest of the market for several years now. I have a friend who wants to go offgrid so that when the utilities come crawling to him over broken glass and beg for some of his excess solar he can tell them to get stuffed. It aint gunna happen! He is living with the pixies and playing with his ol todger while shooting himself in both feet.  He has the perfect site for a grid tie and load diversion system, it would return him better than 30% on his money every year but he would rather work his bum off, buy a truckload of batteries and go broke slowly instead.The frustration is that I see this negative thinking a lot, people making continuous bad choices and brooding about how bad things are. It is not a good place to be mentally. On the flip side coffee spurted out my nose when I heard that some conservatives had called my mate Josh CAPTAIN BLACKOUT after he made one little tiny positive remark about renewables. Its just comedy gold! I love it  I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
That is a really good post Yahoo. Not take away from your suggestion of lobbying our head in the sand politicians, There was a news item recently where farmers in Australia where installing off grid solar because their power lines were going to take forever to get replaced after a bush fire. When they started investigating it they also found it was going to be much cheaper than replacing the power lines on their properties. Now it is up and running they are as happy as pigs in sh!t, the solar is more reliable and no power bills. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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