 Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me. |
Forum Index : Electronics : Perfect Toroidal for the OZ Inverter ??
Page 1 of 5   |
|||||
| Author | Message | ||||
fillm Guru  Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi All- If in the perfect world there were a made to order Torodial for say a 7, 8 or even 10kW Inverter then what it be and what would be asked for from a Toroidal winder? PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
It would be a 26v:240v 10kw transformer I guess... probably $2000 in this country. ...........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
||||
| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi OZ, Being 100% Green to this - Would there be prefered wire size for the primary and secondry to make it as efficient as possible. Does the Input voltage have any bearing on the 26v:240v Not wanting to repeat questions is there a thread that answers all ? PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Yes there is... many I'm afraid. Clockman tells me I have scribbled over 80000 words on this topic here and elsewhere, detailing every little thing and answering hundreds of questions along the way. I guess that http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148717.0.html and maybe in here: http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148827.0.html here: http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1116.0.html here :http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1044.0.html I have lost count of the where and when I admit. Simply... as big as you can get, and yes for the latest control board, any voltage is fine, just select suitable transformer, and mosfets and capacitors with enough clearance, other than that any voltage will do.... no circuit changes. I think in Madness case, maybe 2 units split across the house switchboard. The wave addition will have peaks of 660v at worst between the two systems. This is not a big deal to 240v compliant wiring systems as a general rule.... most stuff will handle 415vac as well as the 240v, so peaks up in the 600v mark are already designed for. .............oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
||||
Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Hi Film, I am doing a Big OzInverter, double stack cores that give me 230mm outside diameter a 100mm centre hole and at 140mm thick. The core alone is nearly 38kg. The problem is handling the core when it is being wound with the secondary's as the enamelled copper wire is easily damaged when lifting and turning the core. My 6kW OzInverter core was 190mm outside diameter, 90mm centre hole and 120mm thick. About 21kg. I have always wondered if 'Oztules' ever sleeps? I have to keep getting my book out to remember what I wrote down.  Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
||||
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Hi Oz, Would you mind elaborating a little on this part I have quoted, in particular where the 600 volts is coming from. Are you talking about 2 Inverters in parallel? Thanks Gary There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
||||
| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Yes splitting the switchboard into zones as we would do with three phase switchboard, and try to spread the loads over two circuits ( rather than three for three phase). That way your inverters need not be so huge, and you have redundancy built into the house. You may have hot water, and lighting and shed on one, and oven microwave GPO's etc on the other. This way long heavy loads will not likely be concurrent on a single inverter. The second one above will see high but shorter loads. The GTI inverter route is worth exploring too, as it takes the loads off the DC inverter and uses the HV panels which can be mounted further away. I built a simple switch to cut them off at certain battery charge level, but don't use it either... the batteries you describe would probably do best in this environment, as over charge is much better for the FLA oldies than normal charging.... This also transfers the ripple to caps that have a much easier job to do at 400v and only a handful of amps.... lots of good reasons for it really. FLA batteries like to be flogged in the up direction, and cycled. The use of two inverters separately and concurrently in the switch board means that because they are not synced, there will be additive voltages as the waves may move out of sequence ( probably very slowly ). This means the electrical pressure in the wiring will see not just the usual 320v, but the insulation between the cables in the conduits if laying together will move from zero to 640v as the phase relationship changes over time.... pretty much the same as in 415v ( 580vp) three phase.. a big woop. This is a non problem, but needs to be mentioned. So if you grab both hot's at the wrong time, and your RCD does not kick in, you may get 640v peak or zero volts dependent on the timing.... coursing through your body... very much highly unlikely, but the possibility exists in theory. .............oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
||||
| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Thanks Oz, Later on I am planning to explore the 3 Phase version of the sine wave chip. My thoughts are to have 3 Single Torroids. (unwind out windings and rewind to suit primary connected to inverter) I see your point re grid ties, very easy to turn off with the Charge Controllers I have already. Might be a silly question but the Torroid primary is wound for 26 volts , how does it get up to the high 50's to push charge into the batteries? Gary There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
||||
| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
It can drive it up further than that if it wants. We are using a heap of 22khz square waves for the synchronous rectification when we are reversing. I think that we are really making the rectifier-transformer relationship behave as a boost converter.... as it is a switching rectifier. ( square wave synchronous rectification) It has no problem doing it and I have put 5kw or more backwards without problem... seems very efficient too. Thats my best guess anyway. .............oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
||||
| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Well I have picked up a few of the Aero-Sharp Inverters complements of the info given by Madness. Anyway I took along a bathroom scale as Gary informed me that he had found some slight differences between the units he picked up, so I figured that weight would be a fairly good ID. There are the later ones with the MC4 solar inputs and the earlier MC3. From memory there was about 1.3kg difference between the models as well the model number changes. Still a pretty heavy unit at around 42.5kg from memory. I do have a question on the performance with variable speed loads and how the inverter can handle them. Has anyone tested the inverter with a variable speed drill or VFD Load? I do know that a very reputable brand until recently would trip in overload with these types of loads. The next question is how are the LV cutout and reconnect Voltage are set with the kit that Clockmanfr has done the ground work on. I am more happy enough to support people who offer a service like the kit he has put together. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Runs triac switched loads and vfd loads without any fuss at all... ie dish washers, welders, variable drills and sanders etc etc....front loader washing ,machines with triac switching for the motor, and days at a time @ 1.5kw on a dedicated VFD pumping water for a reverse osmosis salt water unit I developed that needed variable pump speeds to maintain tight pressure bands. I have not found a load that it falters with..... and that includes loads the very reputable brand has difficulty with, and even the also rans like the victron have trouble with. I don't understand why they work so well, for a $1.90 chip. .........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
||||
| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I use a solid state relay connected to the element in the hot water system which is controlled by my charge controllers. It uses a 2khz PWM signal to divert the excess solar power, this makes my Trace inverter groan and growl, will be interesting to see how it behaves with the Oz Inverter. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
||||
| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
It should be similar i would think. The transformer will act as a transducer to the world, and tells you what it is doing. It will be interesting I agree. Odd about the toner experiment..... ..........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
||||
| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
The Trace Inverter is very different in how it works, there are 3 transformers that are used to produce the sine wave, each being switched on and off in sequence. From what I assume from reading your writings the OZ Inverter has very minute fluctuations as loads are switched. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
||||
| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Thanks OZ, I will get the PCBs and book from Clockmanfr and do it with the help that it provides rather than trawl through countless thread pages. Still there is the question about LV Cut and Reconnect. With lithium Battreies I get the Reputable Inverter people to set them in program and then there is a choice of 4 settings with dip switches. Can this EG8010 LQFP-32 chip be custom set? Its hard to believe that a $1.60 chip can replicate and almost out perform the big guns.  PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Data sheet is here http://voron.ua/files/pdf/micoshema/EG8010_datasheet_en.pdf Doesn't appear to be any thing on the DC side to shut it down, could easily done with Arduino or similar. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
||||
| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
My Ozinverter is so good that I do not have to worry about much. Everything in the houses runs well. The HZ is stable and the voltage stays within my parameters. The Back charging is excellent, with no flicker on the lights or tone change on electric motors running. Even better is the no light flicker at night. my New/old commercial Inverter would be stepping between windings when on low power draw. Kit of parts... Not at present. One of my young teen boys might in a couple of years. I have the Book, with all the 'oztules' information required, 130 colour photos and diagrams, of each stage. With a PCB making supplement with all the masks, component lists and details for the 3 PCB's. And an additional Book option...the Book and the commercially produced double sided 3 PCB's , 6-15kW Power Board, the latest OzControl Board, and the OzCooling board. http://www.echorenovate.com/the-ozinverter.php http://www.echorenovate.com/new-book--make-a-6kw-inverter.php I am not a business with this project, I require my printing, copy, P+P and PCB making costs. Regards LVD. Low Voltage disconnect, interesting..... as with this OzInverter I have never had to work the LVD to protect the batteries as the OzInverter is only using about 45w so power drain in tick over mode is reasonably minimal. LVD, I would use an ardunio circuit that at 49.20v would activate through a small relay that can also switch the On/Off on the OzControl Board. AC Coupling and using GTI's.... I mention this in the Book, a couple of pages, I use SMA SB's and I can alter their internal shut down parameters sequentially as the AC on the OzInverter Mini Grid Rises and falls. Eventually I will be running about 15 to 20kw of PV on GTI's. I also explain about a fail safe shut down with the GTI's, a relay on the AC side of the GTI, but so far the GTI's do what they should and I have never seen my Fail safe actually operate. I think oztules is the same with his GTI.? I can talk about SB's GTI, (I get them as cheap as chips), but I feel sure someone here can explore the other manufacturers settings for automatic shut down/start up on the AC voltage rise/fall. Your OzInverter backcharges your batteries if you are not using all the power on the AC Mini Grid that your OzInverter is running/controlling and the GTI's are connected to and supplying. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
||||
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
from memory, the way the pcb is designed it is using the temperature circuit to start/stop the inverter. pin 6? why? because this feature has a ramping soft start/stop effect that prevents the big toroids from cooking the FET's There are 8010 chip versions with under and over voltage functions enabled however these are instant switch on/off and so have been ignored in the design and not connected up. You will have to make your own voltage cutout and wire it to the on switch. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
||||
| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Oh, the other thing I was going to mention is inverter ratings. A good pecentage of inverters from cooler climates are rated for 30 minutes @ 25 degrees Celsius. So a 5 Kw inverter that is run continuously becomes 4.2 Kw and if that inverter is hotter than 25 it is derated further. Opposed to some other manufacturers that spec theirs at continuous operation @ 40 degrees Celcius. Neither method is wrong but it's not really comparing apples with apples. the true measure is about staying under the maximum toroid temperature while pumping out the power. I think it would be very hard to classify one of these builds with the larger toroids on a 30 minute rating. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
||||
| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Hi Yahoo2, Nope, moved on. My first boards were the temp rise and fall, by allowing the 5v to the chip, the chip went into over temp mode and shut down, removing the 5v the chip allowed the Inverter to start safely. We still use the Overtemp mode but with a Temp sensor cheap probe that at allowing 4.3v at a hot temp I think, shuts the Inverter down. Oz Found all this out the hard way. The big Toroid needs careful handling. The Pin 6 is the correct start and stop mode, again 'oztules' has done a fair bit of work to refine this for the big Toroid. What I understand, 'a bear with little brain', is that the 8010 chip is fine for the standard transformer, but above 3kw torroid use, things get sticky. 'Oztules' has pushed this chip and big toroid's to New limits. Again my hat is duly doffed. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
||||
| Page 1 of 5 |
|||||
 Print this page |
