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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Hydrogen Economy beginning in Germany !!!
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| anteror Senior Member  Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
This is the BEST news, I have never heard 
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/10/02/daimler-others-promise- 100-hydrogen-stations-in-four-years/ Hydrogen Economy is beginning.. ! Toyota is also coming..; http://www.caradvice.com.au/177707/toyota-fuel-cell-hybrid-c ar-coming-in-2015/ AS we all know, every day we get enough energy, from sun from an area about 100km X 100Km (or 1000 X 1000Km) area, enough energy for the whole world for whole year. That is very easy to solve  and I have wrote about that for more than a decade.
In Sahara desert, which is the most sunniest place 100(0) X 100(0) km area of solar power plant and all the power to make hydrogen. Tanker ships will carry the hydrogen to all parts of the world and the energy matter is solved ! The only waste what emerges is only and exactly = water. This ALL would cost only few prosents off NATOS and worlds weapon spend, IN JUST one year !! SO..  
But, as we see now, Germans are really understanding the future and where we are going. German quality and undertanding.. !!! NOW we really see that there really is Rapid Reaction Forces, as the NATO wants 
Some real Forces ! Antero Rantanen Finland |
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Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Why do everyone seem to think the world has a endless water supply to waste as we see fit. I dont see water as the answer to our energy needs, remember we all can survive without energy, but NOTHING can survive without water  , and to take our number one precious resource and waste it for energy production is just plain stupid in my view. 
Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Hi Pete, The vapor exiting the tail pipe of an auto on a cold morning. Hydrogen in the petrol is making water. The only loss of water would be the amount of Hydrogen held in storage. Once the energy has been utilized, the water is replaced. By comparison The Oceans can spare a little bit. Another plus is the fact that as trees and grasslands are being destroyed, photosynthesis is reduced and the supply of atmospheric Oxygen is diminishing. Carbon fuels of all kinds are using the Oxygen to form CO/2. The use of hydrogen as a Fuel eliminates the loss of oxygen by This simple process. When water is broken down to is Two basic parts,( Oxygen)+(Hydrogen)The oxygen is released to the atmosphere, Hydrogen is collected and stored until needed, when the Hydrogen is burnt, it only needs exactly the same amount of Oxygen to make Water, the same amount of Water that was used to start with. This is Solar power you can use in the dark, and no pollution. Cheers--------Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
you don't need potable water to make hydrogen. polluted water would work fine . probably better. eliminates the need for an electrolyte. sea water would work fine . brackish water maybe sewage water could be used . |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
In Perth we have given up with the hydrogen buses as they were too expensive and hydrogen filling stations are ten times dearer to build as given in the Daimler article. However, not all is lost because there is the idea in Germany to allow the wind/sun to generate hydrogen during surplus situations and to feed it into the gas grid. Good idea and I do not know if Germany has implemented this idea as yet. The problem with any grid feed is the fact that every feeding-in station has to up the voltage a bit so at lunch time a lot of solar inverters, e.g., switch off just when the sun is at its best. A fact with PV systems which is not advertised widely! Liked the idea as seen in "Who killed the electric car?" to have parking areas with solar panels to recharge your electric car while it is parked. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| raymond thomson Newbie  Joined: 19/09/2013 Location: AustraliaPosts: 36 |
"The problem with any grid feed is the fact that every feeding-in station has to up the voltage a bit so at lunch time a lot of solar inverters, e.g., switch off just when the sun is at its best. A fact with PV systems which is not advertised widely!" I'm not sure what you mean by this, domwild. Can you clarify? Are we being short changed? Thanks Raymond |
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| paceman Guru Joined: 07/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1329 |
My vote is for fully electric cars, charged from household solar systems. That way the environment is protected and consumers are not captive to the continual gouging of corporations (e.g. Shell selling hydrogen instead of hydrocarbons) or government (tariffs, industry lobbying, protection of incumbents, supporters etc.) Hydrogen cars can only be as free (of gouging) as that if individual homes can produce hydrogen and compress it to liquid - a very difficult thing to do. Liquid hydrogen also has the little known disadvantage that the volume it takes up is considerably more than petrol (for the same energy output). That doesn't matter much in a large vehicle (e.g. a bus), but domestic cars would lose a lot of their boot space! There is research going on to use metal hydrides to store the hydrogen to get around the volume and compression problems but we're a long way from that. Greg |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I think what Domwild is trying to say ( i had to read it several times too) is when the line voltage goes up our inverters need to match it, which has a result of slightly less power (watts) being fed to the grid. The lunchtime syndrome is more likely caused by industry stopping for lunch, than sub stations increasing the voltage. The drop in demand over lunch can cause a slight rise in voltage until the grid regulation catches up, but its also likely to work the other way after lunch when demand causes the line voltage to sag. What is more of an issue is some inverters are not programmed correctly at install and are in frequency shift mode, this means as the line frequency increases the inverter backs off, i have had 2 secondhand inverters i purchased that were set this way and were used for grid feed, no wonder they were replaced and upgraded, its not an inverter fault, just a fault of a slack installer not checking the setup of the inverter at install. This is more of a problem in areas like Qld where frequency shift is used to control hot water systems etc, or what many of us would call off peak power. Not all inverters can be reprogrammed (at least not without factory software) so who knows what the factory has set them to, maybe its a inbuilt design we are not often told about. For SMA inverters the software is available to enter into the program mapping and allows changes to be made. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Downwind is correct but had me a bit bamboozeled with the frequency business. Let me explain again: The grid is like a water system under pressure. For your PV system to feed into it your system must increase the "pressure" or voltage ever so slightly. And your neighbours and so it goes on until the 230VAC +/- 7% or so limit is exceeded at close to 250VAC. Where did I read this? Users with PV systems complaining about the system switching off and not feeding into it at lunch time. What is wrong with this logic? Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Frequency shift? Isn't the frequency supposed to be kept at precisely 50Hz? Lost! During the time of the GM electric car disaster, where even film stars had to fill in pages of details to get (lease!) a car and sales agencies did not even know or promote the electric car President Bush muddied the waters by getting the environment ministry to push for the hydrogen economy. As it is very expensive to make hydrogen the idea was dropped eventually. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Yes you are correct, but in some cases the line frequency is shifted by 1 or 2 Hz, from my understanding QLD use this system to control hot water systems (off peak power) and if they need to dump load from the grid they simply increase the frequency and turn on everyones hot water system, its common that during a football final, that peak loads take place during ad breaks when everyone boils the kettle, so to control the grid in such situations they dump power to hot water systems etc rather than try to compensate and vent steam. I think it is a brilliant system of conserving energy compared to venting it as steam at the generator end. For every time period above 50Hz an equal time period is programmed to be the same time period below 50Hz, so in total if it was 1 hour at 52Hz it would also be 1 hour at 48Hz (or 2 hours a 49Hz) it all balances out, it needs to within a 24 hour period or any frequency dependant device, like your bed side alarm clock would lose / gain time. My inverter a Sunny Island do exactly that, with changing the frequency above 50Hz to back the sunny Boy inverters off if supply is greater than demand. The Sunny Boy inverters are AC couppled to the Sunny Island inverter (master) and controlled by frequency shifting the 240v supply to control any AC coupled inverter. Geeeeeeeeee! we are way off topic here for what the thread was about. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Pete, I suppose you know that in order to increase the grid frequency *every* alternator on line has to increase its REV's ever so slightly. This may not be so easy a task as it sounds. Klaus |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
That is correct. The grid is a 3 phase system and generators are magnetically locked to the grid. i.e if you try and increase the speed of an individual generator, all that will happen is that the generator will input more power to the grid. It will not affect the frequency of the grid. If individual frequency variations were able to happen, we would soon have situations where the phase difference would be untenable and we would have a massive short circuit. David M. |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Downwind: If you are saying the PV inverters switch off based on frequency, I would also say that I am correct that they are switching off based on the grid voltage having been exceeded by the 230V + 7% (?). This makes it even worse for the calculation of the pay back period of a $2,000 or more PV system. There has been a suggestion it might even be your lifetime! Mind you, in WA we can still get $0.40/kWh. Are you saying that in Qld the smart meters are so clever to sense a frequency shift and then switch on hot water systems on their dedicated circuit? Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
No not all inverters, just some are programmed wrong at install and are subject to frequency changes. As far as im aware at least some of QLD power meters control the hotwater (off peak) by frequency, it has been said that during football grandfinals etc, there is high peaks in power use during add breaks, when everyone boils the kettle etc, so to balance the grid they dump power into hotwater prior to the add breaks. This smoothes out the high surge of power requirements, as it takes time for the grid generators to catch up and back off, which is a problem for situations of short periods of high demand. Sometimes it just works |
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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Confirm about HW Smart meters here in Qld. It was many years ago(when on grid in town) they were installed, we were informed they turned on your HW remotely. Now with reading this thread and thinking I realise, that must be frequency controlled. Never lacked HW so it worked. We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I was told it is frequency controlled, and i could be wrong, it might just be a signal transposed over the frequency, or even voltage controlled. Either way i think is a brilliant system that allows periods of excess power to be stored in hot water rather than vented as steam and wasted. It might be more common to hydro electric systems, i dont know. The old off peak time clocks many of us have, are often so far out of correct time that they dont even work correctly for the time of day that they are intended to. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| M Del Senior Member Joined: 09/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 155 |
Off peak hot water systems are controlled by a signal that is sent over the wire, not a frequency change. At least that is what a mate working in the power stations said. Some years ago I was having a cooling ale after mowing the lawn and heard the water heater PRV activate. After checking the meter and watching the dial turning I made some enquiries, this was at 2pm. The power company was no help so I made a call to a mate in the industry later that day and he said that off peak water heating is used as a form of diversion load to enable smooth running of the turbines. Just click and activate all the off peak heaters in an area to smooth the load. That way they do not have to vent steam as Pete said, and can cut back on coal usage later that same night (sometimes). Years later I found the same thing written on the power companies web site, so it must be true. This is also one of the reasons you see street lights come on during the day sometimes, but that is just a waste of the electricity with no gain of any sort. Mark Mark |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Hi All, this is one method to activate the Water Heater Cheers----------Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
just to get back to the original post. i like the idea of home made hydrogen. as much as the idea of home made electricity. hydrogen can be produced with as little as 2.5 volts. in fact, i have read that voltage higher than that is less efficient. with a bit of a redesign to turn automobile frames into pressure vessels it would be unnecessary to liquefy the hydrogen. it all comes down to the required range of the vehicle. |
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