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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 09:58pm 30 Dec 2012
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Battery auto watering systems.
Anyone know how the commercial watering systems work (yahoo might know this)
I pondered the idea a few times, and other than 12 x 1 litre coke bottles upside down with tubes to each cell, i have not found an answer.
Any ideas??
Pete.Sometimes it just works
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 11:10pm 30 Dec 2012
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Its all done with a single hose with a T piece running to each battery. remove the vent cap and replace it with the new one that has a float and a tricky valve. It uses the water pressure in the line to hold it closed once the float triggers the valve(similar idea to the solenoid in a garden watering system).
The simplest manual ones use a squeeze bulb(like on an outboard motor fuel line) just pump the bulb till you feel the pressure come tight, all the little floats have switched the valve off in each cell.
very popular in golf carts.
photo attrib: no idea! taken with a nikonD200 but that's not helping ,is it. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 11:51pm 30 Dec 2012
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Thanks Yahoo,
I did say you might know the answer and true to form you produced the goods...as always.
I had thought of a float system but discarded the idea due to ... well a little to hard with parts at hand.
Just finished a beer and had a thought while viewing the empty bottle, so done a test.
A stubby fits nicely into my battery caps and the neck reaches to the right level of fluid, so i might use some clear stubbies up ended into each cell, not the most elegant solution but cheap.
I flog my batteries hard and dont mind gassing them some, so i need to add about 200ml water each month or two, a stubbie will give me a good top up for 6-8 weeks, and a visual indicator to fluid consumption, just it might look like i had a few and forgot where the bin is.
Any other ideas on a home brew watering system.
Pete.Sometimes it just works
MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819
Posted: 12:46am 31 Dec 2012
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I have 670 AHr cells (2Volt each, 4x3 cells = 24v system) and the caps are quite a distance apart.
Are these float valves specifically for battery watering systems and do they come in different configurations/sizes? I like what I see in your photo.
David M.David M.
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 01:01am 31 Dec 2012
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No, not a good idea.
Hydrogen and acid will build up in the bottle.
I would not recommend a homemade waterer, without gas check valves on the water lines and flame arrestors an exploding cell will take out the whole bank.
I haven't seen a waterer built by Redneck engineering that I would try.
VK4AYQ "Bob" may have?
I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 01:27am 31 Dec 2012
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OK, a good point i overlooked (empty stubby syndrome)
Then a gas build up is not a concern here because with age that seems a normal occurrence.
More so the over watering due the fluid displacement from the gas.
Bugger and i had been out counting my stubby's to calculate my millions on the idea to.
As well as solving a life problem, what to to with a empty stubby.
It could still work to some degree with a cap and a small hole drilled in it, as its area of the hole that allows gas migration, smaller hole less gas migration.
O-well back to using pin-pong balls for floats, if they ever make the buggers small enough to fit my filler holes.
Plan B.........any ideas??
Pete.Sometimes it just works
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 01:28am 31 Dec 2012
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Mobi, the valves in the photo would be specifically for a 6 volt Trojan.
The three valves are clipped to the manifold, usually there is fittings and hose in the kit to make a flexible top section with a longer spacing. You just twist them off the manifold.
There are versions for larger batteries where the float is changed to suit the specific fluid level of each particular brand of battery. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539
Posted: 01:49am 31 Dec 2012
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Hi Yahoo
Adding water to cells in a bank is a very personal thing and I think long term use of a auto system could mask what is happening in each cell, as the water level indicates the activity in the cell and to add water without checking other balance issues could cause a problem cell to not show up until it is to late.
On the large capacity cell in lighting plants a big part of battery maintainence was to log water usage, as more usage of water in one cell could indicate a balance problem with that cell, also the specific gravity was logged to see any problem trends before they damaged the cell.
In the initial setup of the bank the acid content SG was logged in relation to the cell voltage and load testing while the bank was being equalised, a lot of the new regulators have a equalization sequence built into them, and it is better than nothing, but sometimes it is nessasary to equalise at a higher voltage to boost a sluggish cell.
While all this may seem a bit pedantic but on long life expensive cell it is important, if it is a sealed battery or a gell cell there isn't much you can do about it, just replace when to far gone, or as a helper use a desulphater. These are a good back up but not the be all and end all solution.
Half an hour on a monthly basis is a good investment considering the replacement cost of even the so called deep cycle batteries, not to mention the huge 2 volt cell in a serious battery bank.
All the best
Bob Foolin Around
MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819
Posted: 01:59am 31 Dec 2012
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I log my SG once per month usually and top up the electrolyte after the SG check.
In hind sight, an auto water system would be a bit of a nuisance. I have been away for 2 months or so at a time and the inbuilt level floats are still floating by the time I get home. I could probably go 3 months if I really topped the cells up.
David M.David M.
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 02:13am 31 Dec 2012
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there ya go!
speak of the devil I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 03:09am 31 Dec 2012
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Think Bob needed his cage rattled to wake him up, hes been hibernating for a while now.
All good information Bob and it sparks another 10 questions for some other day.
When you quote a balance issue what do that relate to, or do you mean a balance of SG
per cell and adjusting the acid concentration to suit.
Whats the remedy to a out of balance cell.
Still want to know what to use an empty stubby for ?.
Pete.Edited by Downwind 2013-01-01Sometimes it just works
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 01:42pm 31 Dec 2012
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The concept is fine, but somehow I feel if it ever went wrong it could cost you a battery.
I would feel a lot less nervous about a completely manual filling system that is fast clean and very easy to use.
How about just hooking up a small bore water supply tube to each battery cap from a common water supply manifold.
Standard drip irrigation fittings would do the job, including an on/off tap to each battery cap.
Water could come from a main header tank that can be raised and lowered in height.
Once lowered below battery height it guarantees no water can possibly leak into any cell if a tap fails to shut completely off.
Low cost, easy to do, and absolutely fail safe.Edited by Warpspeed 2013-01-01Cheers, Tony.
norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670
Posted: 02:19pm 31 Dec 2012
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If cells are not being used below 70% capacity, water does not need adding very often not even once a month. By just carrying out a weekly visual check of float levels is a simple and 10 minute check, with all cells SG checked once a month. This check will reveal any problems in cells and is basically neccessary for any warranty claims.
My original cells (Exide)were replaced under warranty when 3+ years old, it was found they were corroding internally. Cell tops were showing some warping. The cells were taken away and what caused the problem was never revealed to me. I suspect they may have been originally filled with too high a concentration of acid. But my monthly recording of SG and water adding times meant there was no quibble from the manufacturer.
Manual water adding works for me, but I note Exide have an auto watering system that can be optionally added. Looks much like Yahoo1`s system.
Following the manufacturers advice is the way to go, if things go pear shaped.We come from the land downunder.
Vic
MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819
Posted: 02:25pm 31 Dec 2012
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I had to read the sentence a couple of times. Couldn't understand why you were using "bore water" :)
It looks like you might be onto something.
We could go as far as to put a sensor on each cell float and automatically top up each cell as needed but I prefer KISS and If I'm going away from home too long, I can always get a neighbour to come in and top up. It is not rocket science and there is less to go bung (except the neighbour?).
David M.David M.
MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819
Posted: 02:35pm 31 Dec 2012
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As I mentioned earlier, my cells are 670AH big 2volt cells and are also Exide. They have been in service now for 8 years and the SG has never got above 1225. From may past experience with lead acid batteries in the RAN, I'd have expected to see fully charged SG around 1275. They have not given me any trouble to date.
What SG do you read as normal in your system and what size cells do you have?
David M.David M.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 02:46pm 31 Dec 2012
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Dave, I don't know where you got that quote from, but I never wrote that.
Yeah, the KISS principle has a lot going for it.
But if you are looking for a fully automatic system, a stainless steel probe fitted into the battery cap is how the electrolyte level is usually tested, usually only in one cell of a large commercial battery installation.
That probe is energised with a high impedance ac or dc voltage. When the electrolyte level reaches the probe it effectively shorts the probe down to the electrolyte voltage. As the electrolyte level falls, the voltage on the probe suddenly rises and that is sensed by either a MOSFET gate, or CMOS chip.
The advantage of using ac to do this, is that the probe can be coupled through a capacitor so that the voltage at the cell being tested becomes irrelevant.
If you are monitoring many cells, the dc isolation is a very useful feature.
This usually brings up a "low elctrolyte alarm" on the battery charger, but it could just as easily open a small solenoid valve to top up that one cell.Cheers, Tony.
norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670
Posted: 03:38pm 31 Dec 2012
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Mobi,
Original were 910 replaced with 1080. The replacement ones give an SG reading up to 1.24 but the originals went to 1.26 (after a manual 2monthly equalisation cycle), which at my temp(30C) was near exides specs. The lower SG readings on the newer ones, led me to suspect the acid concentration was too high, thus the old ones failure. Your readings to 1.225 whilst that sounds a little low, may be more on the money considering the age of yours. I`m using and Outback60 regulator.
Were your SG readings higher when they were new?Edited by norcold 2013-01-02We come from the land downunder.
Vic
MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819
Posted: 03:47pm 31 Dec 2012
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Sorry about the wrong quote - it was left over from a copy/paste and I didn't check what was inserted.
Never mind.
I like the idea of the stainless probes as the floats in my system are only a plastic rod in a loose plastic hole with a plastic ball on the bottom and they regularly jam and have to be tapped to get them to show the correct level. A couple have even developed fine cracks in the float ball and have to be regularly drained. The plastic material doesn't take kindly to resealing with a soldering iron.
I have taken to putting a tube on the hydrometer so that when it no longer sucks air, it is full.
David M.David M.
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 03:50pm 31 Dec 2012
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Hi Mobi,
sounds like you have batteries designed for emergency power backup. Solar batteries are made to be cycled and are rarely held fully charged for long periods. The higher concentration of acid is an acceptable trade-off for the extra kick in the pants you get with higher SG.
Back-up storage batteries are held at full charge for 99.9% of the time, rust can be a huge problem. so they are built with the ratio of plate material to electrolyte lower to finish the reaction at a lower SG, the downside is a lower short time load capacity. At least that is how I think it is done, I have never been quite sure.
Waterers are brilliant where the batteries are impossible to get at or the machinery is serviced by pillocks.
That is one of the reasons there is fully sealed no maintenance batteries everywhere now-days, everything is leased or rented because beancounters hate paying wages or owning stuff. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819
Posted: 03:56pm 31 Dec 2012
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My cells have been around the 1.225 mark since installation. There is one cell that never goes above 1.220 despite many equalizing cycles (built into the PL40 charge controller).
If the bank lasts another 2 years (and I have no reason to doubt that it will) then my lack of power bills will more than have covered the cost of a new bank. The next lot of batteries will be bigger. Cost of getting grid connected well in excess of $35,000. (Not really an option).
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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