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Forum Index : Windmills : Furling on a F and P , Have I got it righ
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| Taswind Newbie  Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
Hi all Newby here  , so be nice ,lol
Have been trolling the site for a year or so now , and have only just signed up . Built a F and P mill about six months ago and just got it up in the air when I decided to sell up and move house . Was in a fairly sheltered position but in the short time I had it up the best I seen out of it was 11 amps at 13 volts , so it actually works , lol , but in that time I never seen it start to furl . So my first question for you guys is do I have it set up right ?? , have changed the tail a couple of times , made it longer and added a bit more to the size of the tail . Is it to heavy to furl correctly now , or do I have the angle wrong ? , or maybe it was just not windy enough where I was to get it furling properly? I have settled in to the new house and now I want to put the mill back up and continue playing with it , but I want to make sure it is going to furl as it is much more windy here than the old house . Have attached a few pics and constructive criticism is welcome 
And one of it in the air at my old house  |
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Madness Guru  Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Furling is to save the generator from damage in strong wind, so if you have only seen relatively low power output it has not had the need to furl. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Furling is a bit of a black art, and no mater how much maths you try to apply to the problem, the only way to get it right is through trial and error. If I were you, I would try to get the windmill to furl inlight winds first, and then adjust the furling wind speed up as your confidence in your windmill improves. Your tail boom length looks OK, I prefer a long boom, it gives a more stable windmill. You either need to make the tail lighter, or change the angle of the pivot. Try replacing the tail fin with some light plywood. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
As Glenn says.......... Foot note. There is 2 or 3 aspects (or 4 or 5+) to furling, they are the offset from centre of the yaw bearing to tail pivot, the lay back angle of the hinge pin, and the side angle of the hinge pin, all will effect the design result. Then the length of tail and the weight of the tail assembly enter into the design equation to. If you know the answer to how all this calculates out to a given design, than tell us because its a black art of trial and error to get the correct balance on all aspects. Its not we wont tell you, its because if you change one aspect, all the others change one way or the other with it, so very hard to give a direct answer, other than Glenn suggested trial and error, starting with the simplest to adjust, tail weight. If you dont get results then the lay back or side angle is wrong, harder to adjust. Pete Sometimes it just works |
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| anteror Senior Member  Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
In our discussion board we have this calculator, if there is any help for this; http://translate.google.fi/translate?hl=fi&sl=fi&tl=en&u=htt p%3A%2F%2Fwww.poikkis.net%2Ffurling.php Antero |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Hi Taswind, The tricky bit for me has always been trying to judge how much lift the spinning blades are producing, that is the force that you are trying to balance with the tail adjustments. If the blades are not getting up to speed then there is not enough lift to furl the mill. If you are watching it and see the mill at a slightly cocked angle to the wind or it starts to furl in a strong gust then you are pretty close to the mark. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Tas, What Glenn and Pete have said is pretty well how it is , but from looking at your pics I can see why you are having some furling trouble and hopefully give you a better stating point. Firstly the blade off-set distance should be around the 90~100mm , This gives the force to push the blades against the tails wind resistance through the tail pivot. The back angle " Lay Back " whatever angle you have is far to much , decrease that to about 2deg which only needs to force the tail to come of its top stop " Full Furl" ( If you have to much Back angle the tail weight force will increase through the first 45deg+ as the tail furls and will cause very rough furling with lots of shock loads) Your side angle which determines the furl moment is then the only angle you change , from what I see yours is way to much and looks to be 25 ~ 30 deg ... Try about 12~15 deg and if it is furling to early then either add a bit of weight to the tail or increase that angle but leave the back @ 2deg . Also, allow your tail stop to go approx 15 deg to the side in its normal unfurled position , due to the force constantly being applied from the blade off-set it will keep your blade into the wind until the furl moment is reached. This will give better tracking and low wind performance. Good to see a post about the good ole F&P ... they have been a bit lost of recent Have a go at all that and I am sure you will be happy with the result . PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
Thanks all for the input I Thought maybe I had the pivot angle too steep , which is why I asked for some input , I would of chopped it off and changed it before I put it back up . I have seen it give a bit of a jump sideways in a big gust but that is about it , where it was before was a bit close to some trees and was a bit too turbulant for it . I added the bottom section to the tail to try to improve this which it did marginaly , but after that I extended the tail which made it heaps better , so maybe if I take the bottom section back off to lighten it might improve it . Good idea with the plywood Glenn, would be heaps lighter than what I have at the moment . Ok , will get her back up in the air and play with it and see what happens , at the moment I think it is going to be easier to get the furl right than it is digging the holes for the anchor points for the mast, going to have to go and buy myself a crow bar , lol |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
[quote] going to have to go and buy myself a crow bar , lol [/quote] See if you can find a crow bar with operator, far easier, but cost more. Sometimes it just works |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
Hi fillm , missed your reply , good input thanks , will check out the angle , have had this feeling that it is too much , but have not laid eyes on one before , so is a bit of a guess  .
Downwind , only on first hole , is hard going  
Thanks again guys , will keep you updated |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
[quote] Downwind , only on first hole , is hard going [/quote] To be honest its that long ago i dont remember. O-yes i do remember it was not easy? Sometimes it just works |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
A whole day to dig 4 holes  , got them about 500mm deep and the same diameter, go through rocky clay , and then hit a wall , solid clay , have made them like a bell shape , digging out around the bottom of the hole .
I hope they will have to pull out a big plug of ground to get out , all holes have rocks jutting in to the hole for the concrete to bond too , was hoping to go a bit deeper , but is just too hard |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
I don't think they will pull out in a hurry. We used to install windmills with about the same size holes and just a bit of 4x2 wood bolted across the bottom of the tower legs and the hole filled in with only earth. Never had one pull out or fall over. david m. David M. |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
I hope your right MOBI  , will see next week when I get it back up .
Put a couple of hours in on it today , changed the angle on the tail , took off the 3mm alum tail and made one out of 1.2mm alum , sorry Glenn , could not find any plywood hiding in all my junk , has made it a lot lighter , so will see how it goes. Have put on a cable to pull the tail into furl , as seen on Glenn,s machine . 
Sorry for the size of the pics , have been trying for an hour to shrink them , not too computer smart |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
In reality if you have balanced the blades on the turbine then it will be fine, should you have vibrations due a balance problem then anything can happen and it can pull out the footings. Just remember a guy wire of less then 30 degrees will have a lesser holding power to the ground footing then a guy wire 30 degrees or greater, science has a say in this area and is important to factor in, if the angle is gerater than 30 degrees i doubt the footings will pull out. Its good to see someone making progress with a mill installation for a change. I wish you luck and good winds. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Edit wrong thread.........deleted......... Sometimes it just works |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Tas , Good work mate , as Pete has said is good to see a good ole F&P and some one havin a go . The manual furl is a great option to add to a mill and instantly raises the level of safety in big wind . If you have abundant wind 8-10ms+ your blades will max the F&P out at 300 ~ 400W but the ole pipe blades don't do to much in the lower wind . With the manual furl and the tail pivot angles you have the furling should work well if the tail is now not to light now, I use Alu as it is light and easy to work with and find then I can lengthen the tail to make the mill track better. Any way if you want to have a go with the ALU GOE222 blades I sell , drop me an email through the link on the parts page and I will do you a good price and I am sure you will notice a big difference with a proper airfoil. Just one set for a single headed windmill as I have heard in Tassy the mills have 2 heads 
PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
G,day Pete Balance on the blades was really good , spent a bit of time on this , so as long as nothing has been thrown out of whack in the move it should be sweet . Guy wires will be getting closer to 40 deg for the top wires and the second ones will be over 45 , havent sat down and worked out the angles exactly , but should be pretty good . Oh , two headed Tasmanian jokes , missed that reply earlier , thanks Phill  
Am using this mill as a learning tool,If I can get this one to work am going to have a go at a two headed mill , well two F and P motors on the same shaft anyway , so will keep you in mind re the 222 blades for this one , cheers Got the anchor points in today for the mast , and has been blowing around 5 m/s all day up through the valley ,would of been a nice little testing day , bet it doesn,t do that next week .  |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Looks like you drove the footing into a big cow pad.
Yes Murphy will come and steal all your wind on the day you put the mill up, hes a right bugger for doing this. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Taswind Newbie Joined: 13/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 31 |
It does a bit , gave her a smooth off with the back of the shovel , bewidiful |
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