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Forum Index : Windmills : My new garden ornament!?!?!?
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| Lowerstoford Newbie  Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
Hello Everyone WARNING - Long first post! - Scroll to bottom for main post - WARNING I have been trawling this forum for a number of weeks and I now feel its the time to revel my problem to you all. I think I have found a solution via a number of topics on this forum, but would like to check my problem, and suggested solutions with you guys. The story so far................... I moved to the family farm 3 years ago and whist in the middle of renovating the farm house I had the need to start another project. Green energy I though and went away and spent hours and hours and hours online learning everything I could (or so I thought!) I have always loved wind turbines and late one night, maybe after a few too many beers, I started looking at turbine on eBay, before I knew what I was doing I put a bid on a ARI 48V 750W turbine and controller. The BIN price was £895 so I thought my bid of £248 wouldn't stand a chance, but as I awoke later the next day and checked my email, I found one from ebay saying I was the winning bidder!! GREAT! I thought I have my own turbine :-) The turbine sat in the shed for 3 years until this summer, Myseklf and a number of friends built a tower, using scafold poles and bolted my shiny new turbine on the top. Wired it to the controller/dump load and some test batteries (12 x 7Ah SLA from UPS) and waited for the wind...... The first week we got wind, lots of wind! in fact upto 23 m/s I was chuffed! How much energy did I produce? NOTHING! The batteries where in charge mode for about 20 seconds over the whole week! The turbine could not get up to the batteries voltage I posted for help on Fieldlines http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,147300.0.html http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,147285.0.html http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,147302.0.html But didnt get very far, apart from learning that cheap China made turbine are, well rubbish! I had the idea of using a step up/boost DC-DC converter, and asked about it on Fieldlines, but it was dismisted. I just want to make SOME energy, So I pursued the DC-DC step up and ordered one from ebay. Then I found this site, after many hours of reading, I found post confirming that the DC-DC step up should work So, I should be able to get my turbine to produce something and my research into wind can continues.... I have some basic questions that I hope you don't mind me asking 
1. I am going to wire up the DC-DC step up on its own 3-Phase rectifier and isolating bridge, as per the diagrams that I have found on this site. I have read most of the posts regarding this circuit, but I still don't understand how/why, as the voltage rises, the main rectifier cuts in? how/why does the current start to flow though this and not the DC-DC convertor? (which cant handle the voltage, so its a good thing)??? 2. I would like to add a Voltage doubler Cap Mod as per Gordon, but the page states DO NOT USE THIS for your first turbine. Im sure my turbine would benefit from this. Is it hard to construct? I only have basic electronic skills (IT Guy!). But looking at the page and photos, it really looks quite simple and probably useful in my situation?? Here is a link to the manual (check out the power curve!) http://windesol.fi/windesol/images/4/41/Ari_450-750.pdf Here are the parts I have ordered: Recifier x 3 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250879779580?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX :IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 DC-DC Boost No. 1 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170929163713?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX :IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 DC_DC Boost No. 2 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170945298926?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX :IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 DC Isolation http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260991079196?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX :IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 Any advice, suggestions, recommendations, will be gratefully appreciated Thanks for reading this mammoth post Lee Some Energy is Some Energy |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Before using devices like voltage boosters or cap mode, how far have you looked into why the turbine has a low output? If its a 48 volt machine, then it should be working in those wind speeds, and you should not need to boost its output. Modifications like a voltage booster and/or Gordons cap mods do work well in low winds, and will give an increase in the watt hours for a turbine, so these may fix your problem. The warning about using the cap mod is really only for those with no electrical experience, as there is the potential ( no pun intended ) to get zapped if your not carefull. But back to your machine. Do you have a link to the model, or photos we can look at. Many of the Chinese turbines do fall short of their rated power or reliability, but, they can be made to work very well with a little modification. The controllers are often regarded as rubbish, as are bearings, but these can be replaced with better units. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Lowerstoford Newbie Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
Hi I have updated the post with a link to the manual I have been monitoring it via a weather station that is at the same height and 10m from the turbine In 5 - 7 m/s each phase measures 16v - 22v approx I have replaced the controller with a Tristar 45 and its wired as per Hugo Piggott site in load diversion I will post some photos tomorrow The tower is not able to be taken down so removing the turbine for bench tests is a huge task and involves building a scaffold tower and getting someone to help me. If I could get away with not removing the turbine then it would be great, but I will see what you recommend... Thanks Lee Some Energy is Some Energy |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Those figures would indicate its a 12v turbine. At 5ms the machine should well and truely be making power at its rated voltage, so I would expect closer to 60 volts, not 16. Playing around with voltage boosters, etc, will give some power gain, but I cant help but think there is something not right with that turbine. Its either been incorrectly labeled a 48volt model when its actually a 12volt model, or there is something wrong with it. Can you rig it up to charge a 12v battery and make some mesurements? Also, a suggestion on your tower. All windmills need maintenance, at least every year or two you should take it down, check for problems and grease, etc. And in the early days, when your setting it up, you may need to take it down several times to make changes. So I would suggest you modify your tower it so it can be taken down without too much hassle. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Lowerstoford Newbie Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
Hi I have perform various test regarding the voltage, here is what I have found All where tested within 30mins with a steady m/s wind 48v battery config: Each phase measured 16-20v so DC output would be around 27-34v (phase x 1.74) I have noted that in very strong gusts of over 14m/s the voltage rises to charging levels for a brief second or so 24v Battery Config: Each phase measured roughly the same as it did in 48v config, and DC output was rising close to charge levels, but did not charge Turbine looked to be running slower than it was in 48v config 12v Battery Config: The wind had died down a little but was still gusting up to and above 5 m/s Turbine hardly turned Did not get a chance to record voltage levels as the thing never got up to any speed. I can perform any test and record any measurement you suggest so let me know what you need. I kind of assumed that it was a rubbish turbine made for hurricane force winds! :-) The tower..... I understand that the turbine will need servicing and that I why we have a scaffold tower to work on it. It Takes 3 hours to build and 2 people, we do not have all the bits so it a bit hairy when up on the top and also the turbine is on the edge of a slurry pit, so this adds to the excitement It can't be modified as its welded and concreated into place. If I have to get the turbine down, then I will have to, but logisicly it's a bit of a fuss :-) Thanks again Lee Some Energy is Some Energy |
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mac46 Guru  Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
I can't help but think we are missing some vital info. Takeing a wild guess will not help cure the problem, this machine may have any of several problems from a break dragging to a slip ring shorted out, the list goes on and on. All three phases should be nearly the same voltage and can be checked from the ground. Take the necessary steps to insure personel safety. Have you contacted the previous owner about the problems he may have had, machine history? any modifications done? Welcome to the "The Back Shed" forum. Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| Lowerstoford Newbie Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
Hi I feel that I'm missing something after spending the last 6 weeks trying this and that to make this thing do something All three phases do measure the same I'm always safe, no fear on that one The turbine was brand new when purchased. The company have vanished now, so I can't ask them. The frustration continues..... Some Energy is Some Energy |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Lee I had assumed this measurement was taken with no load or battery connected. But in you later post you mentioned you measured the output voltage while it was connected to a battery. This voltage reading wont tell you much. Also the fact it only ran slow when connected to a 12 volt battery indicates it is in fact built for a higher voltage. Instead of voltage, you should be measuring current, on the DC side of the bridge rectifier. Current will give a better indication that the turbine has reached cut in speed, and if it is making power. If its connected to a 48 volt battery bank, and you mesure no amps, then the turbine hasn't reached cut in speed. As soon as the current meters starts to read a value above 0, then thats cut in. Any higher, and you work out the watts using amps times battery volts. So if its making 2 amps at 50 volts, then thats 100 watts. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Lowerstoford Newbie Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
Ok I will run some current tests this evening or tomorrow The voltage reading where taken with the battery connected and from the AC side of the rectifier Would it be a good idea to test the AC and DC without a battery? Should it produce 50v at cut in? Just low amps? Cut in is ment to be 3.2 I will me you know the results Lee Some Energy is Some Energy |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Only in low winds, so it doesn't get away from you ( over rev ). Be ready to short it out, and be carefull of the open circuit voltage, it could rise to lethal levels if the turbine spins up too fast. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Lowerstoford Newbie Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
Exactly why I have not tested it without a battery yet Too windy (if there is such a thing) at the moment Some Energy is Some Energy |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Regarding your tower that can't be taken down, there may be a way to get around that problem. Build a tubular support for the turbine that is hinged at the base of your fixed mast. Rig a lifting cable & winch so that this support tube can be raised & lowered, using your existing mast as a fixed support. Fit your turbine to this movable mast so it is clear of your existing mast when fully upright. Make strong clamping arrangements to lock the movable & fixed parts of your mast together when the wind turbine is operating. I suggest you do that ASAP and tackle the turbine problems after that, you'll thank yourself for that mod somewhere down the renewable energy track Klaus |
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| Lowerstoford Newbie Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
Nice idea I have the scaffold tower if I need it I would rather get the turbine working first and worry about the tower later My reasoning behind this is that if I can't get it to do anything I will throw it away and buy loads of solar! I don't see any point spending anymore time or money on the tower if I don't have a working turbine Some Energy is Some Energy |
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| Lowerstoford Newbie Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
Will using stupidly small capacity batteries effect the output? Are they creating some type of resistance or other electrical effect? 28Ah ??? Just a thought Lee Some Energy is Some Energy |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Lee, I have had a quick read of all the Q&A's that were posted on Fieldlines and I don't see the point in going over the same questions again as they gave you some fairly good advice and it comes from very experienced people. I think the major point is that you need to get the mill down and check it out , in reality a 1.8m Dia mill is basically a toy so it should not be that difficult . Chinese mills like you have bought are not built for performance but are all designed for a box size and how many they can fit in a shipping container , then glossed up with a hole lot of bullshi# that has been copy and pasted from various sites to sell to the inexperienced and unsuspecting.... They will not have a 48V / 24V/ 12V version , it will all be the same gen with a different sticker then do the same again for the smaller version but put 1.3m blades on and would suspect basicly in its raw version a very poor 24V mill . I could be wrong, and you have bought a mill from a highly experienced and motivated Chinese wind power company that is striving to make its customers happy and are going out of their way to help resolve your problems ..... The DC/ DC voltage boosters you have bought will try to hold the voltage at the minium of the input range ( 10.5V ) on the smaller one , this will probably stall the mill and with what I would think are very poor performing blades and also at 1.8m Dia you would need cyclonic wind . The other things you have not been clear about, what the length of the cable run between the mill and the control , and more importantly the wire size . The other test you can do is put one of the diodes in the DC line between the rectifier and battery and connect your D/Multi on the DC mill side to be able to watch the volts rise to cutin . I would think with these blades @1.8m they would need to be getting up near 150rpm to maintain input power , so whatever the voltage is there will be what the mill might be good for . PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Hi Lee and everyone, I am quite familiar with the smaller version of this style of turbine, I have had a few of them on my bench and I have been very impressed with them. They are a good mill well designed and well put together. the finish is not great, they usually need a good repaint, proper stainless bolts and some work to the mounting bolts but other than that they are fine. the 12/24 volt version is just that, same turbine just hook the batteries up, set the controller to the correct voltage and go. The only difference you will see is the incision wind speed will be a little higher when it is set on 24 volt but not much. It might be 2.8 m/s on 12 volt and 3.2 m/s on 24 volt. That is the point where the voltage is high enough that it starts to pump power in to the batteries or the diversion load. The 24/48 volt version is a bigger generator. the finned part of the case will be 5.5 inches long and there will be 16 magnets inside (8 pairs) each pair will measure 3.5 inch long by 1 inch wide. If you have a look at my topic "small Chinese turbine anatomy" it has eight smaller single magnets around the rotor. I have spun the little one (12/24) in the vice and measured the AC volts across one phase. It was 1.66 volts per rev/second (60 rpm) I spun it right up to 1800 rpm (30 rev/sec) and it measured 50 volts and it was pretty linear all the way up. When I pushed the Hz button on my DMM the readout showed 4 Hz for every rotation of the generator. The 24/48 volt version should have a higher voltage than this one does at the same revs. I am thinking that if your multimeter has an AC Hz function it would be worth taking a measurement. It would be handy to have the windspeed from your weather machine roughly matched to the voltage and the Hz at the same time.If you decide to disconnect the turbine wires from the rectifier to take some measurements, be a bit careful it can jump a spark a fair way if the wind gets up! With a bit of luck you will get a reading then we can divide it by 4 then times by 60 and calculate the rpm. If we can make sure that the low voltage is not caused by low revs it will make it easier to find your problem. 95% of problems are pretty simple things. poor or undersized wiring rusty or loose connectors dirty slip rings blades on backwards crushed or stretched wires wiring not insulated properly and shorting out nut on blade hub has come loose blown fuse bridge rectifier wired wrong too many trees dodgy bearings dry solder joints If it turns out there is a genuine fault with the windings in the generator, it will be a struggle to find someone who can fix it, other than that, its just a process of elimination. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Lowerstoford Newbie Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
Hi Everyone Thank you for all the great information I was hoping to do some testing today but I woke up to a strong north wind blowing I may not be able to test without battery we will see how it goes I am going to preform as many of the tests as I can today I don't have Hz on my MM, may have to ask Santa! I understand what your saying FILLM But obviously I don't want to believe you :-) I knew when I won it for 295 it was going to be a risk! But you would not believe the amount of hassle this whole project has been to get started. If I don't get SOME Power out of this thing, it will be a little arkward This is why I have not spent the £400 on batteries as I needed to check it was working first! (so far, this was a good idea) The cable run is 2.5mm cable as recommended but the manual and the distance is 15m max, as I had to change the location at the last moment If I am understanding the 48v and 24v are same thing which means I can run 24v batteries???? If so this will be a huge help as I have 24v solar already and it will cut the battery costs in half. The location is as good as I can get and has open views SW (prevailing) And most other directions. S is my only problem area as my house is 60m away and I can see the affect this has. Off I go then to the shed to test test and test I will post my results as soon as I can I am going to wait for confirmation on the 24v battery idea. But I may test at this voltage later Thank you all, once again Lee Some Energy is Some Energy |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
I have had a dig around in some of my old notebooks and found some scribble about the 750watt model from a few years ago, its a bit waterlogged and hard to read but it looks like there is a 24 and 48 volt version. So it looks like they are not interchangeable. I cant tell if one is wired delta and the other star or if there are 3 pairs of windings in star configuration and its parallel and series for the two models. I would expect the 48 volt version to be wired star in series. I'm going out on a limb here, and guesstimating that it should measure more like 7 volts for every 60 rpm (open circuit across one phase). the calculation for star across all three phases together is measured voltage multiplied by the square root of 3 7 * 1.732 = 12.1volts 50 volts/12.1 *60 = 248 rpm incision speed with a rotor circumference of 5.65 metres that's a tip speed of 23 m/s at a wind speed 3.2 m/s = tip speed ratio of 7.3. It might not be accurate but it would be somewhere in the ball park. With a bit of luck I could have a job to do on a similar turbine soon, so I could take a couple of measurements while I am there. If there is no wind at all one day,(turbine is completely stopped) you could measure the resistance across the phase wires as well. cheers Yahoo I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Lowerstoford Newbie Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
I'm out in the shed right now and have so far got no current reading from turbine Wind is between 5-7 m/s but not steady Dies down for a few mins To tell you the truth, I have never taken a current reading on my £2.99 MM So I might not be wiring it correctly Each phase is showing 20-22v all identical I even set the MM to mA and nothing? Leads me to believe I may be doing something wrong If there is voltage should there not be some current? Thanks again Some Energy is Some Energy |
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| Lowerstoford Newbie Joined: 30/11/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 29 |
As the wind calmed Itested voltage across the phases with no battery The turbine was running at about 60rpm Counting 1-2-3 and matching seconds on stop watch The voltage reading averaged 20v... Some Energy is Some Energy |
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