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Forum Index : Windmills : Changing Gears
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goingbroke Newbie  Joined: 29/05/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 21 |
Hi All, First of all I would like to thank Glenn for allowing me to join. OK here is what I have going. I am going to covert from HAWT to VAWT. I live in a smaller city in Michigan and the horizontal is just not working where I live. I am starting from scratch so any help would be greatly appreciated. I have access to wood working tools so that is the way I will have to go. I have been looking in to the Lenz2 wing, it looks like a GREAT design. Thanks for any help.........  |
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| govertical Guru  Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 383 |
Hi, what are planning to use for a PMA? just because your a GURU or forum administer does not mean your always correct :) |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
From past posts the Lenz2 is probably one of the best choices for a VAWT. But like all VAWT's, it's difficult to scale up. It is a lot easier to make longer blades for a HAWT than bigger wings for a VAWT. But there are locations, like your's, where a VAWT is the only option. Only tip I can give at the moment is to build a prototype to experiment with before building a full size machine. You'll learn a lot from the prototype that will help with the later build. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| goingbroke Newbie Joined: 29/05/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 21 |
Hi Guys, Thanks for the quick responses. I am going to us the the motor from my horizontal. And prototypes are a good thought. I have been doing some reading trying to get a grip on where to start. As far as the wing goes is there a formula to use in relationship to the diameter. Or is there any diagrams of the construction were I might get a idea how to build one. Thanks |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
The PMA from the HAWT would need to be geared up to work on the VAWT. A HAWT typically would have a TSR ( Tip Speed Ratio, how much faster the tips are moving compared to the wind speed ) of 4 to 8, but the Lenz makes most power at 0.8 ( from memory ), so you need to gear up the alternator something like 1:6 to get it spinning at its designed RPM. You can find the specifications at Ed's site http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/lenz2_turbine.htm Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Have fun building your Lenz2. But if you are expecting to make any worthwhile power from it with the thing stuck up just above roof level in suburbia- forget it, it's not going to happen. I have been playing with that idea for a few years, tinkering with various blade combinations (even counter rotating) and having it geared up by 6.4 with planetary gearing. The best I have seen is just over 1 Amp into my 24V battery bank. When I get a chance the lenz blades will be removed and another design tried out - can't have a HAWT for the same reasons as you. Pity you live so far away, a set of 6 *very* well made alu LENZ blades will be available soon for the next experimenter to have 'fun' with that design  .Klaus |
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| goingbroke Newbie Joined: 29/05/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 21 |
Thanks Guys, All the help has been great. It will take a while to digest all of this. I will keep you guys up to date on my progress. Thanks |
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| govertical Guru Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 383 |
Hi, Steve has been having some better success using a MPPT controller. If your PMA has a high voltage output at a low RPM it maybe a solution. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JcC--1urUw MPPT just because your a GURU or forum administer does not mean your always correct :) |
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| goingbroke Newbie Joined: 29/05/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 21 |
That’s a real good vid. I will keep that in mind, Ones I get the ball rolling.................. |
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mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Going broke, you have not gone into any details about why the Horizontal turbine is not working for you. I believe that the "horizontal mill", may be easyer to develope into a working machine verses a "Vertical mill", you might consider running through some of you'r problems with this forum. A vertical mill can be made to work, but it needs a good supply of "clean wind", just as a Horizontal mill. If you can not get into clean wind then you should start thinking about solor pannels. Just my two cents worth. Welcome to the forum, Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| goingbroke Newbie Joined: 29/05/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 21 |
Hi Mac46, The main issue I have is not enough clean air. It was my under standing that vertical might do a little better with turbulent air. But hey what do I know..... And your 2 cents worth is always welcome.............  |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member  Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
I'm on the other side of lake Huron from you goingbroke. i build vertical mills . they work OK in an urban environment . they aren't as efficient as horizontals you need lots of swept area. ed's design is a good one for sure. you didn't describe your horizontal alternator . you may need a pulley to overdrive it . i have been building multiple mills along my fence line . and running the rectified outputs in parallel. forming a "wind wall" it's one way to get a lot of swept area with out building a huge machine http://www.vawts.net/index.spark?aBID=125317&p=1 that's a vertical axis forum that ed had a hand in starting years ago. check out the archives for vertical ideas. it was open source much like this forum originally but went commercial a few years ago. don't be surprised if someone tries to sell you something. |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Hello Going broke, It is true that a vawt will handle "changeing wind" direction better than a Hawt, but as a general observation the Vawt is somewhat less efficient in the same clean wind. I and a few others here on the forum are working with our own 'Vawt' type turbins, some big, some medium size, some small size, and they seem to be site determinate as far as good results go. Although they are differant individualy as far as height vrs width goes they still seem to be needing to be placed as high as practical to take advantage of cleaner air. That being said...The Vawt will still probably work better in a city/urban environment where "higher towers" are disallowed. My turbin is about 14 feet off the ground and shadowed on two sides by large trees, up on top of a bluff over looking the river where I have constantly changeing winds...You can read my posts if you page back 3 or 4 pages and look for "Vawt,goingin a big way"...this should also get you into other builders of Vawts...read their posts as well. In the real world, it will be you'r choice, if I was going to start with it again I would start with a moderate size machine first instead of the large size I have now. I have learned quite alot during the build and that alone is worth the effort and costs, but for the same money I could have invested in solar pannels, I would not be getting anywhere near the power, and would'nt be able to watch them spinning in the wind, solar pannels are so "ho-hum". Best of luck with you'r build. Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| goingbroke Newbie Joined: 29/05/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 21 |
Hi guys, Sorry for the silence but my computer died. Any way the pma I have is from Hurricane Wind Power and a 10 in. pulley and no this is no plug for them. In regards to the Lenz2 blades I have seen them set up as a drag and inverted, is one way better than the other? I check out Ed`s web site and he shows 3 blades for a 3 foot dia. 4 feet tall set up. I do not fully under stand this whole concept of the vertical mill but would more not be better, but use smaller blades? I was thinking scaling down the wing size and going with 6 blades what do you think. I know its all about trail error but my name says it all. |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Hi Going Broke, Basicly speaking...its you'r baby. Try to keep it as light as possible, Three wings would/might be better because you will be getting a dead spot from the leading wing when its directly up wind, the wings need some room to work correctly. if you want more power make them longer, if you want faster rotation then make it narrower. Study "apparent wind", and sailing up wind, or tacking. I am not sure if there is a "perfect size of height to width ratio" because all this changes as you make it a different size, also depends on what wing profile you choose, and all of this is "as I said earlyer" sight specific to you'r needs and you'r wind conditions. It may help to make a small model, but like I said it will not act the same just by makeing it larger in perfect scale. You will need some time to experiment and adjust it after it is finished, and you may even need to start over, there is just no good way of telling. Some,(not all) have had good luck with the Geos 222 wing, a very good low speed wing, and there are other good wing profiles as well. You can have a blue print from a certified proven machine to work from and still there would be no promises of it working as advertised, but there is a chance that it might work better too. I know that I have not helped you much, trust you'r instinks and do alot of reading and study. Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
isn't that hurricane wind power alt a modified Delco car alt? you have to match the seed and torque of the mill with the power band of the alternator. that lenz 2 design is a combo wing. it operates on drag and lift, ed used an 8" dia. dual rotor air core alt. 9/12 for three phase. i've seen them used with 10" and 14" rotors as well. hey, i know of one that used two sets of wings stacked up and counter rotating . the mag-rotors rotated one way and the stater in the opposite direction. if you follow eds instructions you should have no trouble. there is even a guy that builds and sells complete lenz2 kits. he's over in Ohio i think. there's a link on ed's site. good luck! |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Thats a good point Tinker, one would drag the other around until things got going properly. Low wind behaviour could be very unpredictable. I think the only way to ensure counter rotation is using a couple of gears or belts to couple the two sides together so they can only rotate in opposite directions, but if you need to use gears or belts, you may as well use a single turbine/VAWT and gear it up to get the same increase in alternator speed. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
your right, there was no real advantage. if i remember the video correctly, in light winds only one side would turn. still, it was a clever construction. personally i just go with a mill twice as tall. the rpm/crossing speed is about the same, but you have twice the torque to push against the load. |
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| goingbroke Newbie Joined: 29/05/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 21 |
Hi Guys, First I would to thank all who has replied to my post. And if I no not reply back to a given poster please do not take it personal I read and appreciate every reply. Any way it has been a week from hell. Between the computer crashing , work and the honey do list I need days that are 26 hours long to have 5 mins. for me. And here is the kicker, when I was taking the horizontal apart, I happen to give the PMA a spin. I heard a strange noise. To make a long story short the rotor came loose from the shaft. IE paper weight. Now before any one attacks Hurricane Wind Power, I called and talk to Tony and he was explaining some things to me about some internal issues. It is not my potion to go into detail about some one else s business. But what I will say is he stood up and admitted that there were problems and is going the extra mile to make it right to me. Now that’s a honest man. So the the build is still on.............pieces & parts  |
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