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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : (MM) Viva the MM
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pcaffalldavis Senior Member  Joined: 17/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 187 |
(MM) Viva the MM Can someone please explain to me why the Maximite must be modified to be compatible with the Arduino? Just because the Arduino came first, and so at this time has a larger user base, does not seem to me to be a good reason to modify the great, and in many ways superior MM. Certainly not just so it can be compatible with the Arduino. The MM reads and runs compiled Basic, a benefit for sure to a much broader group of people around the world. And it has 20 I/O’s, also a great improvement over the Arduino. So what is this movement away from the pure MM all about? Why should the MM morph into a modified hybrid which is not 100% compatible with pure MM’s and with reduced and remapped I/O’s to work with the Arduino system? I don’t mind the merging of the two for those that want a hybrid, but what about those that don’t want to lose the wonderful features, benefits and compatibility with the original MM? I’m not a computer designer, but if folks running MM’s wanted to interface with Arduinos wouldn’t it have been possible, for the most part, to make a custom junction board that plugs into an MM where the necessary MM pins are rewired to headers designed for the Arduino and or its shields? I realize some functionality of the Arduino is not possible from the MM, but again, that is by design. If those functions are so important to Arduino users, then why don’t they stick with Ardunio’s, instead of morphing the MM into something with reduced features and benefits just for their own use? I realize there are some features that were not intended for or designed into the MM. Some of which are possible with the Arduino, but that was the plan when both the Arduino and MM were designed and created. The MM is what it is, and it does many things better than anything I’ve seen in the past 20 years. The Arduino is good for what it does too, but the two are not the same, and to me do not need to offer the same features and benefits. I don’t completely understand why it is a good idea to try and combine them. To me it’s kind of like crossing a cat and a dog. I suppose it might be possible (?), but you are going to have something that most folks don’t quite know how to work with. And clearly, the hybrid won’t really be compatible with either of its parents. Sure, it could be something wonderful for those specialists that know how to combine the two worlds, but it will not be for everyone. It should in fact appeal to a smaller subset of users overall than either of the two parent products. Just basic marketing tells us this. This move to create modified versions of the MM such as the DM or its various versions may be fine for some, but they seem unnecessary to me. Sure, some folks want to combine the Basic ability with the currently larger Arduino userbase and its many shields. But the morphed versions of the MM with reduced functionality (number of I/Os) won’t work for many folks. Clearly the morphed MM’s will only appeal to a niche group, not everyone. A more troubling point for me is the move away from commercially available and fully assembled MM units. This is clearly a move in the wrong direction, one that could negatively effect or perhaps even stall the growth of both MM’s and morphed MM’s. What about the folks that want to be able to purchase an assembled MM, those that have no desire to build their own MM from a kit. And what about those who can’t settle for the reduced functionality of a MM hybrid? It looks to me like this plan to morph the MM into the Arduino world, leaving the original MM design behind, will be a step in the wrong direction. Wrong for many people around the world. Not perhaps for all, but for many. If the MM had come first, and had built up a large user base, I’m thinking that with the many and varied features and benefits of the MM, the Arduino family would have modified its design to work with the MM rather than the other way around. Yes I know there are a number of things the Arduino family can do that the MM will never do. That was by design. And if the world wanted something of a hybrid that could merge the two worlds of functionality together great, but this should not be done at the expense of and or discontinuation of either of the parent products. This reminds me of back in the day of early IBM PC’s when PC "compatible" units starting coming out. Those vendors that tried to be “mostly” IBM PC compatible ended up missing the boat. Back in the day, “mostly compatible” had a long list of *asterisk notes at the bottom of the page. These incompatibilities turned most folks off. Eventually everyone voted with their dollars and “100% compatible” became the standard. I wish the same thing would happen for the Maximite. I don’t mind the hybrid options, as long as they don’t muddy the water and end up turning folks around the world away from both (the MM & MM hybrids). I do wish the original standard and 100% compatible MM were still commercially available in a fully assembled unit. There are many scientists, students and field engineers that NEED something like the MM for their work. These are not often folks that are willing to take up a soldering iron to build their own units. For the most part these people need to stay focused and start their projects with assembled units. How can a broader user base of a more limited product be a good reason to discontinue or reduce the functionality of a newer, more innovative product with an easier to use interface? LET'S BRING BACK FULLY ASSEMBLED 100% COMPATIBLE MAXIMITE UNITS! Somebody in the world needs to do this! This MM movement can’t continue to rapidly grow and spread around the world if fully assembled units are no longer available. Morphed hybrids alone won’t be able to carry the interest or maintain the growth curve. Viva the MM, Long live the MM! Pete in Hyder If I’m wrong on this could someone please explain what I’m missing? We're all here 'cause we're not all there. |
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bigmik Guru  Joined: 20/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2914 |
Hi Pete, This topic has been done to death so I wont elaborate it here again. Suffice to say the MM is still available and can be produced by anyone who wishes to produce them, there is NO copyright.. the artwork is available..You could even get them made yourself.. The DM is a different, but related, product... if you dont like it or dont want it then buy an MM, it is not obsolete! Expensive? Yes but still available. There is no need to bring up the school boy `my dad is tougher than your dad' arguments... it is unproductive... If you dont like the DM family then dont use it.. All I ask is that people compare the products and make their own mind up on what way to go for their application. Regards, Mick Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<< |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
I have both the Maximite and DuinoMite here to play with, and both have been fun. The Duino's have a big following and I think making a Duino compatible Maximite is a good idea, but I myself have very little experience in Duino stuff, so I'm just as happy with a pure breed Maximite. It's a personal preference, the market is big enough for both, and depends on the application. I do agree we need a fully assembled Maximite on the market. Don does sell a EV-Maximite which is fully assembled, but minus the video and keyboard connectors, though I guess these can be fitted to a case and wired to the board? Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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elproducts Senior Member Joined: 19/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 282 |
I can only address part of your question. 1st - Arduino compatibility was originally suggested so those that wanted to use the MM I/O could easily do so with an Arduino shield (which have lots of options). This made it easier for those "hardware challenged" to get the most out of the MM I/O as quickly and easily as possible. Dontronics answered the call with what you described, a plug in board (Donduino Cross) that converts the MM 20 I/O to Arduino I/O (which also has 20 I/O; 0-5 analog and 0-13 digital). 2nd - The DM changed things for reasons beyond MM to Arduino compatibility and there has already been much written about that so I won't go down that road again. 3rd - You state: "The MM reads and runs compiled Basic, a benefit for sure to a much broader group of people around the world." This I have to disagree on. C is far more popular and as an author of both C and BASIC books its been proven to me. In addition MM runs interpreted BASIC not compiled BASIC. Compiled BASIC has been around for a long time (PICBASIC, PROTON BASIC, BASCOM, MikroB, GreatCowBasic etc.) and it never had success anywhere close to Arduino C. The simplicity of Arduino C has enabled professionals, students and hobbyists to all come together and the Arduino exploded. I know that Sparkfun.com sells 300-400 Arduino modules per day (based on their inventory numbers over several monthly surveys I ran). And that's just one reseller. MM is successful but I've never see those kinds of numbers anywhere for MM. So volume is an issue and the price of DM makes it tough for anybody to compete with a pure, assembled MM unless you have access to a low cost contract manufacturer. SM1 was available but stopped due to the cost reason as I understand. I too hope a Maximite assembled to Geoff's original design is offered at some point and I know some are looking into it but I know there is a real question on how many actual sales will exist to justify the investment by those who are considering it. This is the unknown that is hard to answer and holds the fate of giving you what you ask for. www.elproducts.com |
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djuqa Guru Joined: 23/11/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 447 |
I also think there is ROOM for Pure MM clones and DM style units. Also assembled units of pure cloned Maximite boards is one area that is sadly lacking since the SM1 unit offered by Don sold out. Altronics/Jaycar/Microzed are missing out on a very big potential market. In the dark distant past I assembled for several major Australian Kit suppliers, Kits that customers either found too challenging or were unable to complete. 100's of Australian computer users assemble their own PC's, but millions BUY pre-made PC's at Hardly Normal or OfficeWanks. Is for this reason I have already decided to produce a maximite clone that is pre-assembled and is also Modular for expansion. I have already alluded to this in a couple of previous posts as the ????mite. I will be formally announcing it SOON!. VK4MU MicroController Units |
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| pcaffalldavis Senior Member Joined: 17/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 187 |
Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I didn't know this topic had been talked to death. I thought the newly changed status of the no longer commercially available 100% MM clones made this a rather new question. I have read a number of threads where the topic or discussion was about the BEST direction things should take for the future, DM or MM, but I didn't realize that some were considering leaving MM behind altogether. I noticed there are something like 3 or 5 EV MM'S still available from Don, but I was sure surprised to learn complete and fully assembled 100% MM clones were going to be discontinued altoghther. Thank you for letting me know about the MM to Arduion bridge. I was not aware of these. So doesn't that answer most of the needs for Arduino users? So I guess in the final analysis, without debating differing abilities would most of you agree that partially compatible MM's are interesting not just for their ability to venture further into the Arduino world, but primarily because of their lower cost? I only ask because if the conversion board that was just mentioned from Don, which has the ability to pass all 20 I/O's into the Arduino world is available, then what other reason could there be for less than 100% compatable MM's? I'm not trying to beat a topic that has already been done to death. My questions and interest are genuine. I was really surprised when I learned last week that no one at this time is selling fully assembled 100% MM compatible clones. And I'm thrilled to hear one is coming! Yahoo. I will stock up! Sorry if I turned over a rock. But I'm thrilled to be learning as I go. If I hit a nerve I'm sorry. This is what I've been mulling over in my mind these past few days and it in fact affects the future of my work. I'm thinking of producing some controllers in the future and see no reason to migrate away from what I know already works. Oh, and I'm sorry about my lack of knowledge regarding interpreted Basic vs C. I started learning C years ago but never used it again. My life was mostly out of the C loop. Again, I learn as I go. My experiences were just different. Thanks for that update. Now that I know C is the more widely used language I may think about going back to it just for kicks. Thank you all! Pete in Hyder We're all here 'cause we're not all there. |
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| Olimex Senior Member Joined: 02/10/2011 Location: BulgariaPosts: 226 |
When we created DM we wanted to add not only Arduino compatibility, but to add many things which MM original design is missing: - Low power - Real Time Clock based on 32kHz crystal - Battery operations - LiPo battery charger, automatic power supply source switching - Arduino connector so tons of ready made shields and code could be reused - UEXT connector where you can add with MOD-IO not 20 but 200 I/O pins - CAN - USB host OTG capability which allow mouse, camera, USB stick to be attached - Ethernet *on the new eMega which will be ready for sale in January - Real UART - Real SPI - PMP 80 Mhz parallel port *on the new eMega which will be ready for sale in January all above features are not available in MM sure the firmware still have heap of work to may take advantage of all hardware options which DM offers, but this is because the changes are radical and much more complex than MM hardware so the support for all these features will take a time I'm always puzzled why people so much care for these few extra GPIOs which now are multiplexed so can be used for their real hardware functions rather than bit-banged GPIOs? Please tell me one single practical application where you can do it with MM but not with DM and I will agree with you. |
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| djuqa Guru Joined: 23/11/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 447 |
The duinomite (jeez I own all three types and will buy one of the first eMEGA units) is great, but if some wish to own a pure compatible why not offer it. VK4MU MicroController Units |
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donmck Guru Joined: 09/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1313 |
I am feeling very battered and bruised over this much overdone discussion, but what a fine question Tsvetan. I feel like repeating it 137 times for effect. This is the whole point. I just removed most of what I wrote as I know it will be interpreted as the ravings of a crazy old man, which I may well be at this stage. 
Perhaps 2012 will be better for everyone. 
Cheers Don... https://www.dontronics.com |
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Keith @ Senior Member Joined: 19/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 167 |
Pete I interpret the situation you are concerned about as evolution ... a very rapid evolution in the case of the MaxiMite. It is also a commercial evolution ... if you can't undercut the opposition then you have to reduce the costs. If you can't do either then the opposition wins irrespective of the greatness of the product. If people can't see the value in the greater/better product and don't want to or are not willing to pay more then the same result. Slow turnover, lack of interest = disposal sale, move on ... evolution. The 2 things that make a MaxiMite are PIC32 and MMBasic. How many alternative boards are out there in the world with PIC32 ... 2 to mention are the Duinomite and the UBW32 both of which will run MMBasic. I'm sure you could cobble together quite a few more that would run MMBasic to a 100% or lesser degree depending on the features you wished to exploit. MMBasic has now evolved into MMBasic+ for the Duinomite board ... but not to dampen the enthusiasm for the MaxiMite but to add to the functionality of both to a 100% or lesser degree depending on the features you wish to exploit and the hardware. MMBasic is really just a skin/front end for C and it is written in C. The PIC32 is being run on C not BASIC. Soon evolution will bring to the fore the 100pin version and at some stage this will become the mainstream item and this will require a MMBasic++ version. What happens when the PIC64 turns up? So what is 100% compatibility when it is measured against time and chip makers? You only have to look at all the 100% compatibilities that have been thrown out to make way for the technological juggernaut .... and Moore's Law is another measure and not just for the PC. Evolution in action ...    easier, faster, better, more features, more appealing, .....more more Moore Gates Jobs ... more ... we live this every day of our lives.
Keith The more we know, the more we know we don't know ! |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3800 |
Pete, If all someone wants is a PIC32 board with MMBasic, well the MM is OK. It has various shortcomings such as the heavy overhead of the vast numbers of interrupts - which you may not realise is the case but in some uses will be more than a nuisance. There are others, such as it not being very suitable for use with a Lipo battery. Plenty of people may be happy with the MM and with MMBasic. Great - they should buy the MM. But is the market big enough? I don't know. I decided not to buy before I even found the DM because I looked in detail at the MM and wasn't happy with the design choices made, particularly those in the electronics. The DM suits me far better. Great, also, as it exists :) I'm not sure whether I care about the Arduino-related things or not LOL (probably because I always regarded the Arduino as too limited for my interests) The DM design choices, ignoring Arduino things, suit me much better than the choices in the MM. But that's just me. Is the number of I/Os an issue? If it is, presumably people will clamour for MMs. (Not me.) Had the DM just been a clone of MM that was cheaper, would I have bought one? Maybe, but it would have to have been REALLY cheap as I would have been buying it only as a temporary thing until a better design arrived. If (and I think it is "if") interest moves away from the MM it's because people have wants it doesn't satisfy the way something else does. That doesn't make the MM bad it just makes it a choice they passed over. John |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
Well from the very first post about the MM on this forum I said I was interested but with the likes of the commercial mobs overcharging like a wounded bull I waited in the hope the price would come down. When the DM was first introduced it did look the goods and when the price structure came out I put my hand in for one of the first ones. I have here now a SM1 and DM mega board so when I do code I can test on both to ensure it will work on both. Now the DM is becoming mainstream it is the hope the DM and MM can be brothers and like brothers the fighting is still going on..... and why should it. The MM is still a great product and the DM is moving forward and it has been said many times ANY code done on the DM is welcome to be done on the MM... Gerard has done a great job porting the MM code for the one wire and my hat goes off to him for doing such a great job. That helpfile I made is a good addition but as yet it won't work on the SM1 board as it hasn't been ported over BUT the code is there to do it. In the name of the brothers Mite can't Maxi and Duino work it out as silly bickering is doing nothing for this great project and the longer it goes on the harder it will become to get new people in as all they will see is silly bickering going on and say why bother..... Regards Bryan |
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| pcaffalldavis Senior Member Joined: 17/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 187 |
Sorry for the grief Don. The answer to Tsvetan’s question came to me in about one second. Not everyone is or wants to be a computer hobbyist. Lots of businesses invest heavily into Research, Development and Design (RD&D). At some point electronic controller products end up be committed to a specific platform. If that platform shifts, is modified too rapidly into something else, or disappears all together, it becomes too unreliable as a base for product design. If that happens great amounts of design time and money have been wasted. To me, and many folks I suppose, the question will not be IF a task can be run just as well, or perhaps better, on an alternative platform. The problem is not knowing if it will run on another platform. And the part of that question that is so frustrating is: If I know as a developer that a product will run on a specific platform why should I need to be bothered with the trouble and expense of finding out about whether it will also work on another platform? There are lots better things for product developers and designers to do than spend their time wondering if something that currently works will also work on another system. Not everybody works in or with computers. Most people just want computers to work for them. Most folks don't pay any attention to the controller that runs their refridgerator. They just want it to work. Many developers are like that too. If I knew my project was going to run on another platform just fine, and it would do this without spending any time on modifying the design, then there would not be a problem or raise any questions. The problem arises when a team spends large amounts of time and money designing a product to run on what appears to be a good stable platform, only to find out later, (like weeks or just a few short months later) that the platform is no longer available or has morphed too rapidly into something else. If that happens those platforms, no matter how good they appear, are going to be much less attractive to product designers. I understand Moore’s law. We’ve all been dealing with it in electronics now for about seven or eight decades, maybe longer. The fact that the evolution is so fast in computers is exactly my point. Sometimes a very basic computer that has fixed and vast functionality is or should be a standard shelf item and always available. I still have some old 8088 processor boards that do pretty much the same things as the MM. But the MM is way better! By far! Smaller, low voltage, relatively low amperage. Everything you need to design and operate literally millions of projects that can interface with the real world. That is more than most of 8088’s were capable of. I think the MM is a computer format that should have been created back in the 80’s, but the fast evolution that took place back then seems to have left a basic and very functional computer such as this in the dustbin next to some designer’s desk somewhere. I don’t mind change, or evolution. But to abandon a solid standard because something new and different can do more is not always a panacea. Perhaps I made enemies with my opinions. I hope not. Where I live we don’t have to all agree to get along. It is good when we can discuss our different perspectives and opinions, disagree if we must, but still respect each other. Thank goodness we are all different. We all bring something to the discussion as long as we try to be thoughtful. I strive to achieve at least that. Thank you all for your thoughts. And please Don. Don’t take this as an attack on your work. It was and is not intended to be that. Cordially, Pete in Hyder We're all here 'cause we're not all there. |
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| elproducts Senior Member Joined: 19/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 282 |
What I love most about the Maximite is the open source. It was first and foremost a cool project Geoff was willing to share, not a business venture. Geoff shared his design so any of us could produce our own. For example, I prefer using all the various Arduino shields but like the option of programming in MMBASIC so I made my own Arduino style Maximite that I call Maximino. As you can see it plugs directly into a side by side shield and can easily run a CHIPINO (Arduino compatible) Demo Shield. I'm leaning toward open sourcing it at this point but not sure I want to take on the time of answering questions. I know I asked Geoff questions when I was working on this and he was more then helpful. But because of Geoff's willingness to open source I was able to build this in less than 30 days in my spare time. And all 20 pins are completely MM compatible so anything I produce on my SM1 will work here without modification. Even if DM grows and MM fades, as long as the design is shared, MM will live on in some form. That is true benefit of open source. 
www.elproducts.com |
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| Olimex Senior Member Joined: 02/10/2011 Location: BulgariaPosts: 226 |
Pete, Elproduct said it right - if you are business and you want to use MM you can do this anytime as it's open source. You can always build them yourself or hire someone to do this when your business grow. When you did your RD&D for your product MM was available at some price, which was acceptable for you, now to the best of my knowledge MM price has not changed and it's available at the same price, so what is your problem? you can always build your product based on MM. Elproducts - congratulations for your new board, it look nice! |
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| pcaffalldavis Senior Member Joined: 17/10/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 187 |
Yes, I could have them built myself, or have someone else build them for me. But that is another step that I didn't forsee for such a wonderful system. I would rather avoid that step and focus on other issues. The price for MM kits may still be the same, but I never purchased or built a kit and didn't ever expect to have to. I started this thread just about a week after I learned there were no longer any assembled versions of the MM available anywhere. And for MANY people kits don't count. Completely assembled MM's should be commercially available to developers, designers, to anyone that wants them, as a finished product, SOMEWHERE in the world six months after rolling out. And I'm sure they will be again. I'm sure I could produce them myself too, but having them manufactured puts another step, delay, and expense into the development process. A step that could easily put product development back more than just weeks. It just caught me by surprise to learn that a product that was so wonderful and new in July 2011 was no longer available in December. Six months from being announced to no longer being available was a shorter window than I expected. Especially for such a great concept product. Heck, six months is barely enough time for folks in most of the world to even hear about the MM. Thank you everyone for your comments. I'm perfectly happy to put this thread to bed. Maybe that would be best. I sure don't want this to cause anyone to need extra ulcer medicine. Life is too short and I must say, far too joyful! Thanks everyone! You're the best! I really appreciate each and every one of your comments. Cordially, Pete in Hyder We're all here 'cause we're not all there. |
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| rhamer Senior Member Joined: 06/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 174 |
I think it is only fair to point out that there was never an assembled version of the product until Don decided to do one. The original product was a kit project published in Silicon Chip, and that was it. Don tried to supply an assembled version, and did for a while, but he can't be criticised for deciding not to continue. I'm sure there is good reason. The DM which was inspired by the MM is now available as an assembled product, but understand clearly it is not an assembled MM, it is a different product, and while it is very similar it is not exactly the same. The DM is moving forward under its own direction, independently of the MM, primarily because the MM is no longer open source. Regards Rohan Rohan Hamer HAMFIELD Software & Hardware Solutions Makers of the Maximite Expander. http://www.hamfield.com.au |
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| centrex Guru Joined: 13/11/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 320 |
What puzzles me is that the Dontronics SM1 board which appears to be much simpler to produce than all the other versions that are out their could not be made more viable. If the Mega boards can be made for less cost than what Don had to pay for the SM1 surely a company like Olimex could produce a totally compatible SM1/MM. Even though the Mega boards are very cheap I dont need all the bells and whistles and would like to see like our friend in Alaska the SM1 back in production. Regards to you all a very interesting forum. Cliff Cliff |
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| rhamer Senior Member Joined: 06/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 174 |
The problem is one of quantity. To get cheap you need to make lots, so you also need to sell lots. No I'm only guessing, but if the SM1 was selling sufficiently well, then lots would be being made and the price would be cheap. With the DM Olimex made lots cheaply and is selling them world wide cheaply. They also modified it to make it more appealing to a world market, again to help perpetuate the cycle. Cheers Rohan Rohan Hamer HAMFIELD Software & Hardware Solutions Makers of the Maximite Expander. http://www.hamfield.com.au |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3800 |
^ what he said. |
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