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petanque don
Senior Member
Joined: 02/08/2006
Location: AustraliaPosts: 212 |
| Posted: 05:55pm 08 Sep 2010 |
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Hi people,
Having pondered another post it raised the issue.
Are small wind generators becoming mature enough now that the hard core DIY is no longer really needed?
There seems to be a reasonable range of products (that may be of varying standards).
While there will always be people who are very clever and get the pleasure on making something from scratch has small wind become common enough that anybody who is reasonably handy and prepared to spend some money can get a workable and reliable solution?
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Perry
Senior Member
Joined: 19/11/2009
Location: Posts: 190 |
| Posted: 08:45pm 08 Sep 2010 |
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I guess it kinda matters on what you call hardcore DIY. For those with skills and tools, I think there will always be DIY. For the layman, with no attachment to his 'baby' I think we are almost there. F&P windmills, Hugh's, and the Otherpower turbines are well documented and you can scrounge parts yourself or buy kits with all the hard stuff done already, needing basic assembly.
I think the real question revolves around the fact that if you want to buy your materials at a store and not do a lot of scrounging, you can not build your own turbine for cheaper than you can buy a Chinese one. Their quality is getting better. Check out the Exmork's. So maybe the definition of a reasonably handy guy might entail someone buying a cheap Chinese turbine and being handy enough to 'blueprint' it, better bearings and that kinda thing.
Just some thoughts,
Perry
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Greenthumbs
Regular Member
Joined: 05/12/2008
Location: AustraliaPosts: 40 |
| Posted: 10:01pm 08 Sep 2010 |
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From my point of view being a newbie, I do not have the tools nor the math skills.
I bought a white pointer from Trev because I did not have the time to make the main components of the machine.
I made the 13.5 metre folding tower and did the wiring and that took me a year to construct because of time constraints. I suspect I would still be making the mill itself if it was not for Trev and even then it would most likely not be as good.
My point is my white pointer is my baby even though Trev built half the unit, so I consider that I made it too.
I would hate the idea of just buying a unit from china it defeats the purpose!
I bought a turbine from a Australian with the same interests therefore supporting their hobby too. They are a Australian the goods are Australian the inverter and controller are made by an Australian, all the materials are recycled stuff where possible and I am producing green power! 
I might point out that because someone else can produce such good results it has inspired me to have a go myself and build from scratch.
I guess most people have a mindset just to buy new. Use up and throw out!
Hopefully this is changing.
The fact that this website exists gives me hope and re-ensures me that maybe we are not all doomed.
Keep Recycling and support your country which ever it maybe, we are the ones that will make the difference.
Hmmm well thats my thoughts
Maybe a bit deep but none the less true. 
Damien |
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ProTow
Newbie
Joined: 03/09/2010
Location: United StatesPosts: 29 |
| Posted: 10:12pm 08 Sep 2010 |
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Hi.
Well Im a newbie too...
I have bought a Mill and IT SUCKED. that is the reason im here to learn on how to build one from the ground up.
Sure I would love to buy one that is already built. It takes all the fun out of it. Plus they never put out what they claim to. or I never got mine too.
But after Reading and asking "stupid" questions Im going with Building one.
Sure it might cost alot at first but like someone told me was you get out of it what you put into it. and the Cool part of building your own. is that when someone ask you about it. you can tell them and Brag that YOU built it From scratch. and if and when it Brakes You (or I) only have myself or yourself to blame LOL.
and 1 more thing i think that is Kewl when you make one you will have the know how to Build more when the time comes when you will need it. and Help others Like myself that have no idea on how to do this but the basics
James
If it works the First time You did something Wrong. |
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aorn318
Newbie
Joined: 05/09/2010
Location: AustraliaPosts: 20 |
| Posted: 10:22pm 08 Sep 2010 |
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Hi guys from my point of view as a first time builder I think that building is the only way to go having been one to tinker all my life its the satisfaction of making it work that I like.
It would be good to see a well priced unit that would deliver good watts for people who don't have the time of know how to build there own, the only thing that could be a downfall is if people start making throw away units that would kind of defeat the purpose.
Aron
If it ain't broke don't fix it |
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MacGyver
Guru
Joined: 12/05/2009
Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
| Posted: 10:28pm 08 Sep 2010 |
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Crew
And then there are those of us who just like to build crap whether it works or not! Different strokes for different folks, like the song said.
If I just wanted a simple battery charger, I could have bought a solar panel from Harbor Freight for $299 and been done with it.
But NO!
Instead, I've poured hundreds and hundreds of hours and $ into making mostly stuff that doesn't do much more than compete for "fanciest paper weight ever concocted" -- but, that's the fun of it for me. Other people spend thousands of $ to chase a little white ball all over the countryside -- I build toys. 
As for turning a hobby into spending money, yes, it "can" happen. Look at Tiger Woods; he's done exactly that. But Tiger's just one among millions. My hat's off to the folks offering stuff that works for sale as an extension of their hobby. I say more power to them and if it ultimately turns into leading people to merely buy a windmill instead of making their own, that's okay too.
Like I said; different strokes!
. . . . . Mac
Nothing difficult is ever easy!
Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman,
"Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!"
Copeville, Texas |
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Andy R.
Newbie
Joined: 07/05/2010
Location: United StatesPosts: 18 |
| Posted: 03:19am 09 Sep 2010 |
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I'm all for DIY. I'm a DIY guy too (but at a much smaller level than most people on this board). We do DIY for 2 main reasons, for "fun or hobby", and for "Research". Sure it's fun but historically, countless products have been born from people expirimenting in their garages.
Things are getting closer all the time. The Southwest Wind Power "Skystream" plug and play grid-tie system works but it's lots of bucks from only one company. I'm sure boards like this are pushing things farther along all the time.
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Doug
Regular Member
Joined: 11/05/2010
Location: New ZealandPosts: 41 |
| Posted: 12:07pm 09 Sep 2010 |
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Hey all.
Well put Mac. Me personally, I could have gone out and spent thousands on a mill but where's the fun in that. I much prefer to scrounge bits and piece's from here and there and then learn how to put it all together myself. At least that way, if it does brake I know how to fix it. I have an F&P based mill in my back yard that's quite happy to crank out a couple of hundred watts and owes me about a hundred and fifty bucks. That's gotta be value for money.
Doug
May The Power Be With You |
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VK4AYQ
Guru
Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
| Posted: 03:03am 10 Sep 2010 |
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Hi All
Between everyone's comments on the subject it covers all aspects of what we are about, there is two sides to the equation here build for the love of it or build and buy for practicality, both are valid.
I have built many projects over the years some worked some didn't, but all a learning exercise, I have bought a few turbines also with varying success as none of them worked from the box so to speak, now I get as much enjoyment from fixing up these as from building from scratch.
Building from scratch requires a lot of dedication and equipment that's not generally available to a average builder, with the high cost of machine shop time these days I think its better to get a kit type machine and finish it off and still have the sense of achievement.
The other thing is we should want to make something that's going to contribute some useful power to what ever we want to do, not just be a front or rear lawn ornamental device.
Money is money and we should aim to get some practical return from what we do, otherwise everybody will know we are stupid instead of just wondering about it.
All the best
Bob
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Greenbelt
Guru
Joined: 11/01/2009
Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
| Posted: 06:10am 10 Sep 2010 |
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petanque don
I have read the response to " DIY," and all of them are " SPOT ON", .
Perry, As the first response to this Query, Very well thought out and I believe covers the Essence of the mission this site pursues.
MacGyver has pointed out that a lot of us like to monkey around with ideas just to see what might turn up.
In 33-1/3 attempts or less, you will learn something. Some would say,
"Not worth It" . Others will say, "Now I Know why it didn't work" AND again some will say, "Please don't bore me with the details, I don't care how it works,
The fact that it does is sufficient , If it will save me $20 on my Power bill I want it..
The Chinese Mills are worth the money if only to to get your grubby hands around it and Change its DNA.
Don This is my thoughts on your question.
A windmill Made and sold by any large company will likely be designed to
give a reliable service of mediocre output. Once installed to mfr's directions it will have a long service life and output the minimum as specified. People who tinker with factory standard will increase output at the cost of shortend service life or burnout in extreme weather, Tinkerer's are generally willing to sacrafice the guarentee for the sake of better performance and the satisfaction of making improvements Or learning why their Idea did not pan out. Others Can modify a design to output 20% above the Mfr's spec. and build in additional reliability. this is creativity, The Goal of everyone Who Tinkers.
The F&P is still the Beast of Burden.
Dividing Dollars by WATTS when you do the work.  Edited by Greenbelt 2010-09-11
Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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niall1
Senior Member
Joined: 20/11/2008
Location: IrelandPosts: 331 |
| Posted: 10:42am 10 Sep 2010 |
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hi Bob
im not sure what you mean by
....Building from scratch requires a lot of dedication and equipment that's not generally available to a average builder......
surely the basic tools needed are more available than that ?..i,d like to think so ..
i,ve read posts of builds in underdeveloped countries that dont even have dependable (if any) electricity never mind tech machinery ....possibly not much food either
a stick welder...pillar drill..(.even that old high tech hand saw thingy.) ..sweat ...more sweat ...and basic wood working tools can do a job..
as others have done the legwork ,theory,designs and drawings over the years maybe its not as mystical as it might appear ....
Edited by niall1 2010-09-11
niall |
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VK4AYQ
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Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
| Posted: 01:49pm 10 Sep 2010 |
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Hi Niall
I can see where you are coming from about building something from nearly nothing and as I said it takes a lot of dedication and determination to do so and is very interesting, and if you have the time to do it well that's great, since I retired I seem to have less time to do the building than I had before.
I have seen a wind turbines built with nothing more than a brace and bit a few bolts and nails and a hand saw with an old 32 volt generator for the electrical s, yes it can be done but is it a practical machine to cut into the electricity bill?
As long as its fun and a learning exercise its great, but in this lemming driven society we live in, with all it's rules and regulations its not so easy. It usually takes to the third attempt to get something practical working and if that's fun and you have the time to be doing it that's great.
The cost of making a AF generator is a point, by the time you get the plates laser cut and machined and the super magnets and the axle to mount it on etc the cost starts to run away, on the other hand the F&P is a good starter simple and fun to work with and a proven system with information on the caps and the blades to make it work, so it all works but with power limitations of the design.
I am a bit spoiled I suppose in that I have the machines to do the work myself and only time and bits are a cost, but I worry at the cost of getting those parts machined at a machine shop for other builders, and I worry more when I see the problems created when the proper construction of critical components is short cut by not doing the job in a workmanship way, and relying on luck that its not going to come to pieces in a high wind and hurt or kill somebody. This sort of construction is OK out in the back paddock but not in a residential area where pieces can become lethal projectiles.
Really its a personal situation thing and as we are all different and have different circumstances its up to the individual what they do. I tend to look at the easy way to get a required result rather than making every little bit from scratch as that suits me, but not everybody.
All the best
Bob
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97fishmt
Regular Member
Joined: 19/04/2010
Location: United StatesPosts: 77 |
| Posted: 05:40pm 10 Sep 2010 |
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My goodness Bob you make it sound so hard to get a turbine
together. If you were in the states all you have to do is
get a servo motor off ebay for cheep and whip out a set of
blades to put on it and there you go. A 500 watt turbine
for under $100. Simple I still use a hand saw, draw
knife, spoke shave and planes for the blades. And can
complete a set in a couple hours or days. It's a wonderful
experience.
The hard part that I don't see mentioned enough is getting
a machine up into clean wind. This could be the deciding
factor for disappointment and low output or simply doesn't
work. The tower for the unit is where all the work is.
The building of the machine is the fun part .
MikeEdited by 97fishmt 2010-09-12 |
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niall1
Senior Member
Joined: 20/11/2008
Location: IrelandPosts: 331 |
| Posted: 08:02pm 10 Sep 2010 |
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i do take your point on DIY falling into 2 areas Bob....kind off "good" and a bit "risque"....i think with bigger neos getting a small nip handling one is unfortunately the penny drop point as to how dangerous they can be...
i,d agree Mike about a mast....all i know is mines just way to short
on the machine shop thing there may be more than one way to skin that cat ,its usually for the rotors ..when i wanted my set done and asked for all the holes and centre circle to be done as well youd usually wind up in a long conversation that just takes up the guys time ..the first reply being ...
long pause ..."your trying to build a wha ?"...this can push up the price..time is money
if i,d have just asked for 2 disks to be torched out and got to know the guy the price might have been a little better...you do have to do your own holesawing and drilling though
i dont want to sound like i,m pro axial ...we cant get servo motors here ,postage is
the killer and the f&p is a mythical creature ...
is there a need still for DIY ? ...i certainly love looking at everybody elses work.. Edited by niall1 2010-09-12
niall |
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VK4AYQ
Guru
Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
| Posted: 11:12pm 10 Sep 2010 |
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Hi Niall and Mike
Good to hear that the DIY is alive and well and I agree that the tower is the hardest part to get organized and effective to capture a usable amount of wind, Mike I have followed your project with great interest and admired your results and felt envy for the fact that you are able to get a servo motor at a practical price, to get one in the US and get it posted here is costing more than I can buy a windmill here, the only ones I see on ebay here are tiny little motors that would be hard pressed to return 50 watts.
In the past I have used 32 volt generators and 12 / 24 volt truck generators brush type that is, not alternators with good success but the supply has all but dried up now. For blades I used saw mill waste backs which are a good start to a airfoil section hand carved and vacuum impregnated with resin to assure stability, also time expired helicopter blades cut down and remounted, and gyro copter blades that are no longer usable in the gyro plane, as a matter of fact I am doing a set now for the LG neo magnet conversion I am working on, I will post the photos when I get it finished.
So I do still fool around with DIY projects for the interest of it, but for the moment my main interest is to get a couple of practical reliable mills running to help reduce the soaring cost of electricity, as being on a pension, the extra money being paid to the utility company cuts into my pocket money for projects. So far have managed to reduce my bill from $650 a quarter to $180 and next Quarter I am aiming for close to $0 and considering that there is another 30% price increase before the end of the year, and more into the future I feel it is essential for survival.
Don't get me wrong about DIY projects I love them, but I do see a need for options that can be got working by people that don't have the time or the aptitude to carry one of these projects to a usable end.
We need a lot of usable alternate energy units to help the environment a bit and maybe help us survive in the coming unsure times that are slowly dissolving our way of life as we have known it over the past fifty or more years.
I remember back fifty years ago when every farm in the area had a alternate energy system as there wasn't any electricity available in the district, they all had batteries and a generator hooked to the milking machine motor and wind turbines everywhere, for the ones close to the creek there was undershot and overshot water wheels using and reusing the energy of the creek with no pollution or adverse effect on the environment, with modern appliances and low energy lighting it could be done again, and I look forward to that time if Im still around.
All the best
Bob
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niall1
Senior Member
Joined: 20/11/2008
Location: IrelandPosts: 331 |
| Posted: 12:09am 11 Sep 2010 |
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its interesting your thinking about ultimately going off grid Bob
people do it and hats off to them.......i only wish i could be like them
the power companies here seem to be a law onto themselves and prices are increasing , oddly driven by new charges implemented by the green party who hold sway in the government ...this is the same green party that imposed a 10m limit on any domestic turbine ...go figure ...(if its a farm you can go to 20) but farming here isnt too bothered about wind energy
it was similar here to what you describe years ago as well ...folks used to use small wind generators to charge up the wet battery radios to gather around and listen to what was gong on in the world ...maybe we should look more to the past than the future...a simpler life maybe ?... i dont know ....
sorry for going off thread on the off grid rant....  Edited by niall1 2010-09-12
niall |
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VK4AYQ
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Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
| Posted: 01:02am 11 Sep 2010 |
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Hi Niall
I agree fully with you as to the simple life is the best, but the commercial system is pushing for more consumerism so we walk the tightrope between the two, My relatives and inlaws reckoned I was crazy fooling around with these things but now the cost of electricity is going up all the time they think Im not so crazy after all, it may well be the cost of living that pushes reform as much as the interest in it.
Their house in Brisbane has just had a increase in water rates to $1000 a year with land rates at $3200 a year and electricity at $2800 a year with an increase coming, and a waste disposal of $1000 a year. That's $9000 a year before you eat or drive the car, and its making them think, as my total cost where I live is $800 a year if I can get the electricity bill down to $50 a quarter.
Money speaks.
All the best
Bob
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petanque don
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Joined: 02/08/2006
Location: AustraliaPosts: 212 |
| Posted: 05:30pm 14 Sep 2010 |
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In my original post I was thinking that for practical power production eventually the basic kits will become a reasonable solution.
Presently it seems many basic kits will not give 10+ years service with the materials supplied.
Even the expensive solutions on offer have such high servicing costs that the economic benefit is not obvious.
I am thinking as a ham radio operator 60 years ago most ham gear was home made.
Now only the extreme enthusiast would build a ham radio transceiver.
Presently it seems many Chinese windmills do not offer a straightforward out of the box reliable power solution but it seems likely that eventually they will (assuming you avoid the cheapest and nastiest solution).
Or am I being naïve and romantic to wonder if there will be a time when most rural outbuildings in windy areas will have a 3-5 Kw wind turbine with an grid tie inverter
on them?
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VK4AYQ
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Joined: 02/12/2009
Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
| Posted: 11:48pm 14 Sep 2010 |
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Hi Don
I would like to think that your idea will in time account for a lot of the electricity used by households and lite industry.
When I see the huge roof areas in the industrial areas around Brisbane and all cities for that matter the potential for energy recovery is massive, also I think a fey wind turbines mixed in would help also. As for residential dwellings, as Karl has demonstrated it is feasible to have a self supplied house with grid feed as a distribution network.
The thing that is critical to the practical usage of power is the development of lower energy and enviro friendly appliances and lighting in the home and also in industry.
With the technology available at present it would be possible, but in the future the possibilities are endless.
Also for example my property could produce several hundred KWH without much ground taken up and as there is a 300 day year for solar collection it would contribute a lot to the grid after my 10 KWH for household use, and then there is the windmill addition as well.
I really think if the government was serious about promoting enviro friendly energy and made available sponsored lower interest loans, say at the cash rate + 1% for installations over 50 KW it could supply most of the required power, and with a bit of juggling of distribution and energy storage it would work.
It all comes back to the unit cost of electricity, as it has been so cheap for so long, but now reality is starting to hit us all,the feed in rate I am getting is 50 cents per KWH and for that price it is practical to have a small energy contribution system.
There would need to be a new industry established making GTI and other electronics that are currently imported, meaning more jobs for the young people, apart from training as nurses to look after us oldies in out last days.
As for the durability of all the associated components, there would be a need for service and repair as nothing lasts forever so that's more work for the locals instead of importing someone else's poverty.
However I dream on and forget that the politics and commercialism of the world will never be so practical.
All the best
Bob 
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Big Al
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Joined: 06/10/2010
Location: United KingdomPosts: 38 |
| Posted: 12:55pm 06 Oct 2010 |
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Just to give an input from UK on this, As I've said in another post the Americans have an attitude to Diy which is get-on -and -build-it , can-do and diy. You colonials seem to have this in spades. Here in the UK with one or two honourable exceptions , like Hugh Piggott , our attitude has degenerated over the years to relying mostly on b-----t from gurus who don't know that much and are out to make a fast buck , and buy- it- in. (sigh ) Is this why we lost the Empire? ( I do notice that the Americans are starting to go our way but your steady diet of Eucalyptus leaves seems to leave you Ozzies and Kiwis immune, .so far at any rate .
In the UK we are over-regulated which is to some extent reasonable as we don't have wide open acres. To put up a reasonable size windmill seems to cost about £5000 for the mill and controls plus pretty steep erection charges. The Chinese ,thank God , are starting to knock out the most outrageous profiteers and most of the many ,many small wind turbines sold here are a poor lot in the main. I'm more impressed with some of the home brew on this site and even in the UK where we have far less diy kit available and no F&P (have I got that right ?) I'm hoping to put together a reasonable mill for say £1500 at the most ,hopefully a lot less , and self-erect (at my age its been a long while since I erected anything ). The strong diy ethos in OZ and NZ should pay off in a lot more areas than wind power-don't lose it.
If we Brits ever get our initiative back watch out . Our long term plan is to reconquer former colonies like China.As you'll no doubt remember the Btish Empire was founded on the twin principles of "forgive and forget" and "never offend another nation " We've made a start with the Falklands and once we've sorted out Afghanistan we've got our eye on those B-------ds who committed the war crime of throwing our tea in the sea ,thereby totally disabling our troops. Once we have Oz under our wing again we intend to bring your cricket and other sport up to British standards and hey ho here we go.Edited by Big Al 2010-10-07
Big Al
Every Day is a school day (even at 67) |
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