 Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me. |
Forum Index : Windmills : dual f and p mill questions
Page 1 of 5   |
|||||
| Author | Message | ||||
gpalterpower Senior Member  Joined: 19/07/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 175 |
Hi there all, I am planning to make a dual f and p mill using one of trevs remilled shafts.seems the only way unless anyone has any other suggestions of driving 2 f&p's. I have been looking at a lot of pics of dual stator setups but cant quite figure out how the 2nd rotor is secured onto the shaft without floating along the spline. 1)is there another nut that stops the rotor from sliding or a spacer between the fan and rotor. If anyone has some close up pics I would be appreciative of them. 2)blade daimeter. is a 3 metre 3 blade fan (using extruded blades) too big or over the top in power for this application. should I or could I go smaller. We live on the side of a hill with elevation and we seem to catch a lot of wind. 3) speed ratio. Has anyone out there dabbled in speeding up the mill with say 1:2 gearing for quicker cutin speed in low winds, maybe using camshaft cogged drive belts and pulleys. they seem to run quiet and transfer power well without any major loss. 4) 24 or 48v . which is best. planning in feeding into the grid at a later date and last 5) is using capacitors as voltage doublers. have read about them but not sure how it works. I appreciate any response to my many questions. my brain is buzzing on overload..... marcus if it aint broke dont fix it!! |
||||
GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
I would opt for 48V system, if the funds stretch enough for the battery system. There is enough info re caps operating on Phill's dual stator F&P mill, 48V system. Series80, staggered windings, 7s2p, one in star and one in delta. Almost ideal loading with Cap voltage doubler on each stator. 6 wires needed down tower, with electricals OFF the mill head. Make sure the furling is up to scratch, and you have diversion loading systems and braking mechanisms in place. Not much point in adding gearing. low speed performance suffers too much. Gordon. become more energy aware |
||||
fillm Guru  Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Marcus , I am currently putting together 3 dual stator kits for complete assy of a dual stator F&P . The system I use for the front stator and rotor uses the origional shaft and the blade hub locks both the rotor and blade hub to the shaft , It is extreamly strong design and has been tried and tested and I would not offer anything less than bullet proof for sale . The kits will also have a very good tail pivot hinge already set up at the correct angle for furling , the tail can be supplied or you can make your own , the tail pivot is set up to have a piece of 50mm aluminium box slipped into for the tail mount and 2x 1.5 mm aluminium tail fins pop rivited to it , this is simple and light and effective , this can also be supplied or you can source your own but it needs to keep with in the same weight to keep the furl set . The yaw bearing is two sealed bearings in heavy walled 75mm pipe ready to either weld on or have a mount welded on to it . The wiring goes through the centre of the yaw bearing , a coupling at the base will allow the twists to be un-wound every few months , it is cost effective and trouble free opposed to slip rings and also allows you to rectify at the base or away from the mill. The blade hub is designed for the use of the pvc blades and will be supplied with the S/S tubes ready to slip on the blades , it allows for adjusting the blade pitch and the tube mount system has been tested in my press to hold at 5 ton with no movement. I am running 3.15m on my dual , this dia works extreamly well , 3m will be good as well. Don't think about gearing to many losses , all your gearing can be done electricially using caps / voltage doublers. You will have to go 48v to feed back to the grid , this is also the best voltage to get the best output from F&P 80s or 100s , forget about 60s . I regularly get 600 to 700w.. Photos and further details should be posted by the end of this week or if you can contact me at phillm6@gmail.com if you require any other info ..Phill PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| gpalterpower Senior Member Joined: 19/07/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 175 |
Thanks Gordon and Phill for you response.I am impressed at the masterpieces that you have both created. you guys have tried it all. Ok......so it seems that 48v is the way to go. Is it possible to grid feed without batteries. No batteries =less outlay=less things to go wrong. Or maybe small batteries or large caps? Trying to keep it simple. I am interesed in your nacell and hub assy. cant wait till you've posted some pics. could save me a lot of time and energy if I can purchase from you. Is there a recomended mast height. I was thinking of 8 metres. shouldnt piss off the neighbours too much as we live out out town. Would still be above the height of our roof by a few metres though Thanks ...Marcus if it aint broke dont fix it!! |
||||
| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Marcus , When using the PVE 1200 grid feed and wind power it is best to use a small 48v batt bank , I have a second hand set of wet cell ni cad with a capacity of 20 to 30 amp/hrs , it smooths the dc out and allows time for the inverter to catch up to gusts . Using batteries is simple . Caps and doublers are used to get the best out of the generator. A tower at 8m is a good managable height , I would recomend that you have the guy wires just below the blade dia to keep it rigid as possible and use at a minium 75mm pipe . Do you live in a good wind area ? Have almost finished the blade hubs , hopefull should have all the pics and details up on the weekend .. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Marcus, The mods I have made to the Latronics TC48 [older type controller/pre internal rectifiers] has solved the overvoltage failures of the control mosfets. Still have to contact Latronics, to see if they will incorporate the mods in their own design. I am able to mod with a replacement micro, but this will affect original warranty. I don't believe Latronics have changed the micro operation coding yet, to resolve the problems. I use batteries without a TC48, similar to Phill, but Bolty uses a modded TC48, without battery. You still need an overvoltage protection system, even with a battery. My PVE1200 was damaged when the battery fusing failed, and the mill pushed the voltage above the design limits. Once the warranty runs out on my PVE1200, I will be making additional mods. There is talk of changes to the RE legislation to allow export of any RE while still receiving the 44c/kWhr govt premium. Gordon. PS the TC48 is really a 3phase rectifier, with a large output cap storage, coupled with a load disconnect switch, and windmill electrical brake. become more energy aware |
||||
| gpalterpower Senior Member Joined: 19/07/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 175 |
Phill, Are 4 car batteries(commodore, falcon) sufficient in size for the job? eeeeh!! possible to go smaller again?? If caps and doublers are to be used I am assuming they need to be fitted on the AC side before rectification. I may have to change my stragedy as I was planning on the recifiers to be placed in the mill housing and sending DC down the pole with 2 heavy leads. The tower. I can get my hands on some 90mm square section fairly cheaply. would this suffice. WIND....WIND Oh yes......she gets windy here. I can leave work in town in the avo with no wind, and when I get home I think....where's it come from. Be looking forward to your hub pics.I was looking at an old agitator today and thought it could be possible to fashion one into a hub/cone combo! Must have hubs on the brain. 
Hi Gordon, Didnt fully understand about the TC48 (first i've heard of it) so I checked out the Latronics site for additional info. So it is possible to grid feed straight thru a TC48 but must be 3 phase fed from the mill. Sounds good but also sounds like they still have a few teething problems as well. What kind of mods did Bolty do? Batteries may be a safer option for now. Hey, great news about the RE legislation if it all comes to fruition. At 44c/kwh I'll put up 2 mills then they can pay me!I believe every house needs to become a power station, whether solar or wind or both. Marcus if it aint broke dont fix it!! |
||||
| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
I modded Bolty's TC48 with a new microprocessor and an alternative electrical braking coding. This modded unit has superior characteristics to the original, and has withstood many storms, that would have fried the original TC48. Gordon. become more energy aware |
||||
| gpalterpower Senior Member Joined: 19/07/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 175 |
Hi Gordon, So if I were to incorporate a TC48 instead of batteries, would I have to feed 3 phase AC direct from the mill to the unit or will they accept DC too? The reason I ask this is because I was planning to rectify at the mill and run only a pos and ned wire feed to the batteries to simplify the wiring instead of 6 wires from 2 alternators. Where can I get one of these modded TC48's from and at what approximate cost? Thanks Marcus if it aint broke dont fix it!! |
||||
| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Marcus , If you are going to go with caps/doublers to get the best out of the F&P stators it is easier and better to have them set up in a box at the tower base and bring the ac down the middle of the pole , I use 15amp extension lead up to the mill heads , this is ample to handle the current of 12amps @ 54V . Having all your recs etc up at the head will be exposed to the weather , vibration , and require a fair deal of room and engineering . I would think that larger car battries would work OK , they are only acting like a large capacitor and smoothing the dc out for the inverter. The tc48 as I understand does the same but with a large capacitor and when it is fully charged and the inverter has not caught up with the mill it shorts the ac to stop the mill , the problem with the F&P is it will not stop in this situation if the wind is strong with 3+ mtr blades , I would recomend battries, Plasmatronics PL20 and dump load and furling that works , if battries can be sourced cheaply this set up would probably be cheaper and more versitle as you can easily change the voltage set points on the PL20 and it can handle a 20amp dump load directly which is more than enough for two mills for future additions.. 90mm box for the tower should be strong enough as long as it is not very thin walled , I would still have the guy wires as close to the top as possible. F&P agitators are not suitable to mount 3m blades on PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
||||
| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
hi Marcus, the mods to the TC48, require replacement of the Latronics micro, with another picaxe, on a new daughter board, that is soldered into the same place the Latronics micro was. The new picaxe, can be programed in place, so tweeking for the application is possible. I did the mods to Bolty's, and I have tiny picaxe boards that are a little bigger than the DIP pic that Latronics use. Gordon. become more energy aware |
||||
| gpalterpower Senior Member Joined: 19/07/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 175 |
Thanks for the info guys, The idea of running 15a cable down the pole to the rectifiers and caps seems a great idea. That keeps it simple and easy to access. Regarding the TC48 mods is very interesting, but i've had a think about which way to go.. Seems that batteries, reg and furling is the winner, for practability, user friendly with a bit of maintenence on the side. Think I can handle that! How are the dual stator kits and hubs going Phill? Are they near comlpletion? Thanks for the scoop on the agitator. Could of been very messy indeed if I tried to use one for a hub on a 3 metre mill. Those blades could be doing a few klm's/hour in a heavy wind!!! Just a moment of madness I had. Thanks Marcus. if it aint broke dont fix it!! |
||||
| gpalterpower Senior Member Joined: 19/07/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 175 |
Well I have finally started on my dual f and p mill. Phill, I really liked the the idea of your setup using the original bearing mount and slipping it into a machined pipe. Very neat! I have been working along the same lines.will post some pics soon. But for now I am requiring some help on my mast. I have 2 X 6.5m lengths of 75 mm thick wall (5 mm) gal pipe. I am planning of placing 1.5 min the ground to make it rigid. The top of the base will be 5 m high. Then Ill swing the other lengths off that making a total of 8.25 metres. what is an appropriate hinge to make or buy? Are 3 guy wire enough for the job ? Any thoughts....regards Marcus if it aint broke dont fix it!! |
||||
KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
Marcus, i'd be going for 4 guywires and at that height 2 sets of. 8m doesnt sound much until its up in the air, then its pretty high, particularly with 30KG+ sitting on top. 4guys gives it sideways support as it goes up, three does not, hence less chance of it swinging sideways and killing you. Luck favours the well prepared |
||||
| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Hi Marcus,, You' on the right track ,,but do go for the 4 guys. Now another important point is the levelling at the "Guy Anchors",, the two side anchor points MUST be in line of sight through the base pivot hinge point..and preferably level---otherwise you will require to lossen one side before lowering and raising.. try to set up a lazer level to get this right...an hour here can be very rewarding.. Bruce Bushboy |
||||
Tim_the_bloke Senior Member Joined: 15/11/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 105 |
I agree. This is important but not obvious until you try to lower your tower and see it slip to one side. Remember the windmill at the top swings around with a hinged tail chasing the wind. When the tower is part lowered, the windmill will swing and the tail will hinge, not necessarily symetrically. Expect sideways live loads on a part lowered tower. You must have guys anchored in line with the tower base hinge. If one is slightly lower, it will go floppy when you lower the tower. I got this wrong and watched my half lowered tower flop to one side and bend itself in a hard landing with the ground. |
||||
| JimBo911 Senior Member Joined: 26/03/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 262 |
Marcus Here are some photos of the base plate I made. I made this plate because I only use three guys and it will only allow the mast to till North South. (in my case) It did take some doing. You have to be sure the plate is solid. It has to be bolted and or welded in such a way so it will not get lose from the foundation or the tower will fall. (East West) With no side support wires the gine pole has to be very strong and ridge or it will bend and that would not be good. My mast is 14.2m 
Jim |
||||
| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
you showing off again Jimbo? Jealous 14m.... Karl Luck favours the well prepared |
||||
| JimBo911 Senior Member Joined: 26/03/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 262 |
Karl Just trying to help. I still think that a four wire system is the route to go, safer and easier to work with. I just don't have the space to use four support wires. The base mount is much easier to fabricate and you can place your mill at almost any height. Jim |
||||
| gpalterpower Senior Member Joined: 19/07/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 175 |
thanks for you input guys, it all makes perfect sense , i can see the advantage of using 4 guy wires, but i dont think i have enough room , especially when it comes to having the 2 side anchors and base in line and sight of each other. i live on a sloping block with small pockets of tiered levelled land. the one in particular i intend to use is on the high side of the block for better wind. i could use 4 guys, but they would be at different levels, thats why i thought 3 guys would do. may have to go and do the jim thing, looks solid mate!! how much concrete in that base jimbo, guy wire size and distance of the anchorage points from the base....14M tower.......woooooooh! Marcus ....ps a merry christmas to you all and happy and prosperous new year...hope santa was good to you all!! if it aint broke dont fix it!! |
||||
| Page 1 of 5 |
|||||
 Print this page |
