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Forum Index : Electronics : Inverter brownout fix
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Tinker Guru  Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Oztules had a good point when he muttered "Pin 6 of the EG8010 and I have issues". Madness was on the right track when he discovered using shielded wire for the ON/OFF switch at pin 6 reduces the funny business there. Today I came to the conclusion that pin 6 is very particular as to its input. The very high currents inside this inverter, and powerful magnetic fields across the choke air gap can easily induce stray voltages in nearby wires. We want to be sure its not the wire to pin 6... So I tried an even better solution than using shielded cable (there's always another way mad  ) and it appears it does the trick.So far I had modified only one inverter's control board but that 3KW inverter now can happily power my stick welder whereas before it would not. Before I could only tack weld from the inverter. Now I can lay on a full 3.2mm sticks worth of bead and keep on going. I would be nice if somebody else could confirm my findings, always better to get additional results from inverters that have a different physical layout than mine has. So, what did I do? Simple, fit a small relay to do the switching right at the pin6.  I used a 5V DIL relay stuck to the back of my control board. Yes, I know, it looks crude but for testing purposes its fine. So the front panel ON switch only turns the relay coil on. The N/O relay contacts connect right at pin 6 the shortest possible way. One side goes to +5V, the other to pin 6. This required cutting the original track to pin 6. I also had fitted a 0.1uF ceramic between pin 6 & ground and changed that 10K resistor (which is permanently connected to pin 6) to a 5K1 size. I further fitted another 10uF cap to the 5V line to ensure there is as little as possible noise there. If you use this kind of relay be aware the coil contacts are only on one side. I choose this Rly for its size and high coil resistance since it is energised all the time the inverter runs. Next job is to modify the 6KW inverter which is connected to the house so I can turn on microwave, induction oven and what else I get my hands on to see if the brownouts have gone for good. Klaus |
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Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Looks you have a dead cockroach there Klaus! Another alternative is to hardwire 5V to it and use the temperature feedback for shutdown. I won't be playing with mine for the next month or so as I will be away. Why not use a MOSFET instead of the relay Klaus? WIth a 10K resistor to ground it will still turn off. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
If you go back somewhere..... I suggested that exact thing.... found it, 6 posts down here Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Gary, its experimental and a relay is what I had at hand. Shall we leave the Mosfet idea to Wiseguy?  .Klaus |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I am sure Wiseguy will have a have another method that uses more parts. When I can get to it I will try going back the old TFB shutdown, after all how many times do you need to turn your Inverter off? I could even use the brain (Nano) to turn it on and off, that would be more Wiseguys style. Mark, Tinker might have had your idea tucked away in his subconscious all this time just waiting to be put into use. That fault was never mentioned until more recently, I know I had never seen it with the earlier Oztules control board with pin 6 permanently at 5V. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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wiseguy Guru Joined: 21/06/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1156 |
Sitting back watching with much amusement. The main knockers against adding parts to make it better are now proposing to add parts to make it better..... I have not criticised anyone or their implementations but I have raised some suggestions for discussion - just because it is different to what you did it doesnt make it personal and it doesnt make it wrong. I thought that was what these forums were about, sharing ideas. Perhaps you arent interested in auto restart or a single switch start solution - thats fine but maybe some of the other readers here might be - I must have missed the post where you were elected to speak on their behalf. Perhaps staying on subject material and avoiding getting personal is a good example to set & follow. If at first you dont succeed, I suggest you avoid sky diving.... Cheers Mike |
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| noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 513 |
Regards using the nano, it does have serial communications and easily talks to the nano... get the nano to turn it on and off and leave the switch debounce to code in the nano, i had code written somewhere and it worked flawlessly. . Pin 6 to 5v always... I think it works !! |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I am already using serial communication to the LCD and plan to also use it for data logging from the Nano, communicating with the EG8010 as well could be done but gets rather complicated to code when using multiple serial connections. The temperature feedback is so easy to use with a switch and I already have my control boards wired so the Nano is using it to shut down the Inverter. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
I was having that problem with the Clockman boards, 10 posts down here Hey what about an easier fix with a clip on ferrite? It looks like the layout seems to have a lot to do with when it occurs, in a mild case like mine it may be just enough to solve it.  Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| wiseguy Guru Joined: 21/06/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1156 |
Note for users new to this relay, that some versions of these DIL/DIP relays that Klaus used have a diode internal to the device and are polarity conscious usually the Cathode is towards pin 2, Anode pin 6. If at first you dont succeed, I suggest you avoid sky diving.... Cheers Mike |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I was referring to the earlier version of those boards that did not use pin 6. The ferrite will help with high frequency but if a current is induced at 5V it will probably have 0 effect. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
Thanks mate, I'll give it a try anyway, still only happened three times, been over a week since it last did it. Klaus' layout seems to be more vulnerable to it for some reason, I never get it with big loads at all. PS just after I took that pic a bloody spider ran out of it and up my arm. Going to nuke the shed now!! Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I think you are on the right track there Klaus. Have you tried an opto isolator instead of the relay? It would be faster, and not suffer from the possible evils of contact bounce which might introduce some other "interesting" effects. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Have you checked all the DC connectors including all the ones on the battery, I had one that was not tight in the middle of the battery and caused a few dropouts when I first got my current battery. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678 |
Been right over it, nothing loose, nothing hot, clamp tested each section to see if there were differences in current flow, everything looks fine. only ever does it around 3-5am. I have a funny feeling it has something to do with the heater in my sons room, just tested it when it clicks in and out at lower settings it makes the choke buzz like nothing else does, still not very loud but it's a noticeable difference to any other load. So presumably when that clicks in and out it could be sending nasty interference?? Anyway I put three filters on the switch line and we'll see if it does it again. Also put a couple on the temp probe cable that is fitted to the torroid. Hey Klaus, could you try the same thing with filters, you seem to be able to trigger the issue with high load, so will be much easier to test. Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Mark, there is a barrow load of filters in my inverters. Have not yet modified the 6KW inverter, it did a brownout today when I started my circular saw. The 3KW now can take anything I throw at it up to 5KW so far, need more sun shine to test it further. Here is a curly one for you. Scenario, the 3KW and 6KW inverter both connected to the same battery bank. The 6 KW inverter is powering the house loads (fridge at that time). The 3KW inverter (that was *before* I added that relay) is powering a 2.2KW fan heater. To test it further I plugged in and turned on my abrasive cut off saw. The saw started up, the 3KW inverter kept on running. BUT The 6KW inverter shut down completely. I could re start it easily. I could repeat that effect several times.  Both inverters were located next to each other, fully enclosed. They powered independent loads. I will test that one again once the 6KW inverter also has that relay. I have a suspicion some of you are jealous that I'm having so much fun here  . Klaus |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Klaus have you had your fix of magic smoke yet today? Is it that pin 6 has just enough voltage on it to work normally but your 10K pull down resistor is tipping it very close to the threshold? There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Yes Gary, I have knocked off for today. Your theory, maybe, I'm changing that 10K to 5K1, done so already for the 3KW job. 5K1 ensures better low at that pin without passing too much current (voltage drop) when pin 6 is high. Your suggested TFB shut down as per oztules, I tested that pin with the NTC temp. sensor. It turns fan on when sensor is around 45 degree and shuts inverter off when sensor gets up to about 60 degrees. From memory, I had to do a remove all power to clear the EG8010 fault that resulted. I would imagine that is mimicked with the oztules shut down? This is a bit too involved for turning off if that function is done regularly - as at my place with my experimenting. Klaus |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
AFAIK you can have overtemp indefinitely and it will restart. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1026 |
Klaus There might well be a voltage drop on the DC line to the other inverter that was running the house when the power saw starts? Apparently that was scenario I had not long ago, 2 inverters (HF type) on 1 battery bank , worked ok for a long time until 1 for some unknown reason shorted the bridge causing sudden changes in battery side voltage and let the smoke out, the other inverter sitting idle (no load) could not compensate for the sharp voltage drop then sudden voltage spike when the last of the fets legs blew off in first inverter, It then decided to join the party and smoke as well.  (they also had the low voltage cutout)Repaired all that and won't try that again. The big caps on the inverter power board do help smooth out this sort of thing from happening. I think it would be worth noting any voltage changes on the inverters DC input, just to see if that may have something to do with it? Just thinking. Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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