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BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 09:43am 26 Apr 2018

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Hi there,

Been watching this forum for a number of years on and off, and finally deciding to get involved and give something a crack and see how far I get.

At the moment I live in a suburb of sorts, in Wellington NZ, I live on a corner section with neighbours to my front and one side. The section backs onto a banked hillside covered in gorse and other scrub.
I am wanting to put up some kind of windmill, to start out as just a project to see what happens, but to hopefully end up being something useful.

In the next few years we hope to move to a lifestyle block, so at that point hopefully I can scale things up a bit and have a bit more fun after I have learnt some more.

We had a P&F Smartdrive of some kind a few years ago, and I pulled out the stator/rotor and drive shaft some time before I found this page. Its 0.5mm thick windings, and is a 2002 era machine.
Today I had the urge to go to our local trash shop which is on the side of the dump, and I found about 8 stators (some worse for wear), but sadly no rotors (however I am going back for another look - as I called them and they think they should have them).
I took 2 of the 8 stators I found, these are 0.8mm wiring, the others left there are a mix of 0.8mm and 0.6mm it seems (possibly 0.5mm like I have already).
I then called a local appliance repair, and they were just about to throw a machine out, so whipped down the road, and got another stator/rotor set (sadly didnt manage to get the driveshaft on this occasion), just before it went onto the truck to be dumped. I havent measured this, but its likely a 0.5 or 0.6 again, looks like a 1999 machine.

So I now have 4 stators and 2 rotors, all 48 pole, 56 magnets.

I had not heard or seen 0.5mm mentioned, only 60/80/100 mentioned, maybe a 40. May be wrong. Anyway...

After doing some quick refresher reading this afternoon (instead of working...), I am thinking of going towards the 7 phase setup, and trying to find a rotor or two which has the 48 magnets instead of the 56 magnet versions I have now, and using them with the 48 coil stators.
Is this still classed as a good idea, removes the cogging effect without having to file the stator down etc?

I am not yet sure what I should aim for battery wise, but likely 12V or 24V at a guess.

Had a quick look on Aliexpress.com just to see what kind of stuff they have for controllers these days, and there are quite a few options. Just curious if anyone has brought anything which is suitable for these windmills, from the likes of Aliexpress, and if they are decent enough?

I have an electronics engineering background, but have never dabbled with any sort of power generation or large systems like this could end up, but eager to get involved and try things out.

I design controllers of sort currently for work, so can make the logic side control system easy enough, its just the power side I need to do some more reading on but should be able to tackle easy enough - hopefully.

My aim to start with it just get something going, but with the aim of making supplementary power to heat my water cylinder, instead of just mains power for that. Powering anything else can come later, but I thought if I could at least dump everything into the hot water cylinder, then that will save a few bucks, as that is our highest cost appliance, power wise. Then when that is up to temp, I could dump it to some lighting or an old heater or something.

Really interesting to make a dual motor setup, to take advantage of low wind up to medium wind, but I dont want to have a massive turbine as the property (and neighbours) likely wont allow. Dual may not be possible with a smaller turbine though (?), but at least with the 7 phase and reduced cogging I hope that will have some positive effect. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Any and all help welcome and appreciated.

Anyway - hello everyone, let my learning begin :)

flc1
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Joined: 20/11/2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 242

Posted: 10:59pm 27 Apr 2018

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Gday Barky, welcome to the site.
I would suggest you find a 36 pole copper f n p stator with a black rotor cap, they have almost no cogging and more wireing options, I have bought inverters etc from aliexpress, most of it works well. check out my f n p build, should help with what you are doing.

BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 11:36pm 27 Apr 2018

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Hey Flc1,

Yep I had a good read of your build the other day, very impressive stuff.

I guess the part I am stuck on is the selection of the coil wiring vs the stator/cap combos.
I have read the rewiring posts, and thats all good, reducing voltage, increasing current etc, and the various star/delta options which I need to go over again. But what has me at the moment is comparing the likes of 36 pole vs 42 pole, and then the 7 phase option with 42 pole with the 36's cap. Just if there is benefit to this, or if you just end up using 36 poles as is.

Does the 7 phase solution have benefits (42 pole with the 48 magnets, instead of the 56 magnets it comes with) over a 36 pole with its 48 magnets? I know the 42 pole with its 56 magnets has significant cogging.

You did mention to just use a 36 pole - of which I have not yet found any. I am picking up a machine today which is only 4-5 years old it seems, so hopefully it has something lovely inside for me. Its controller died apparently, so getting it for $50. Bit more than I was hoping, but if I can get my first 36 pole with black cap, I am all for it.

I have then seen places like this selling ones, which I had not seen before. I assume these are newer again? 27 pole? black caps.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rotor-And-Stator-MB30W63-Fisher-Paykel-/112711500167
Is this type better than the 36 pole ones?

Just trying to figure out what I need to keep an eye out for, as at the moment im just in the gathering stage :)

Sorry for all the Q's.

Cheers

BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 11:49pm 27 Apr 2018

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I am assuming its the 2004-2008 period that has the good stuff?
2008 onwards is aluminium windings... hmm, how do those go for this stuff?
Curious what I am going to find in the machine today.

BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 05:49am 28 Apr 2018

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OK the machine today was a 36 pole with black cover - nice. However it seems to be 2011/2012 era based on the owner, which doesnt line up with my previous post.

Got a 2nd machine too, has a grey cover, standard 42 pole, 60 series. Unsure why Grey over White cover though.

Got the shafts out of both, will get the bearings out tomorrow.

The pump for pumping out the water to the drain, on the 36 pole machine, so much better than the older ones that sort of clipped into the tub of the machine. This has a discrete in pipe and out pipe, rather than just a paddle which runs inside that little cover on the machine. Will be useful for another project :)Edited by BarkyJ 2018-04-29

flc1
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Joined: 20/11/2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 242

Posted: 07:14am 28 Apr 2018

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if the 36 had a black cap on it ,then its probably a aluminium wound stator, should have ali or somthing similar stamped on it, try to find a older copper 36 pole stator...bit more power output,
you could use a 42 pole stator and rotor if you like, but more work involved with setting them up, decogging etc, and the power output is not as good as a 36, but each to there own I guess.
My advise would be to go with a mppt charge controller for batterys or a mppt gridtie inverter for the grid if you are going that way, stay away from low voltage like 12 volt setup,its to low and 24 volt is too low aswell I rekon ...to much hassel with big cables ,big fuses ,more cutting of stators etc, 12 and 24 volt is for cars n trucks.
If I blow my own trumpet here I would suggest you read my turbine page and davep 68 pages and you will see the rpm-voltage-stator cut setups. Allso a lot of other testing results for f n ps from other people on here such as fillm, mine is just abit easier to find on the forum at the moment. good luck
can you post some pics?

DaveP68

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Joined: 25/11/2014
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 292

Posted: 07:17am 28 Apr 2018

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Hi BarkyJ

Fred is correct with sticking with 36 pole "copper" stators. Machines made between the end 2005 and 2008 all have them. Ignore the 2004 date in the above "Beginning of the Direct Drive" table, as that's when 36 pole the "technology was first developed in the lab" not for sale in a retail store.

DO NOT bother trying to use a 36 pole stator with aluminium windings...

Track machines by product codes, here's a list with copper 36 pole stators;
92125-A, 92127-A, 92194-A, 92195-A, 92196-A, 92198-A, 92200-A, 92201-A, 92202-A, 92203-A, 92220-A, 92221-A
Machines made between 2005 and 2008 had a cream/white rotor cap with standard strength magnets.

The "black rotor" caps have a 40% stronger set of magnets and have been standard on all machine made since 2009.
Some model numbers are as follows;
WA55T56MW1, WA55T56GW1, WA65T60MW1, WA65T60GW1, MW513, MW613, MW60 etc...

The 7 phase solution applied to a 42 pole stator and has no benefit if you can get hold of a 36 pole copper stator. Like Fred stated above the 36 pole stators have almost no cogging and more wiring options, so don't bother with the 42 pole stator unless you have too.

Hope this helps.

David

There are realities if you do not accept, will lead to frustration because you will be spending time on wrong assumptions and the results cannot follow! The Dunning Kruger Effect :)

BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 09:30am 28 Apr 2018

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Hi guys

Thanks for the replies.

So I have 3x 60 and 2x 80 series, 42 pole stators.
I then have 1x 60 series AL60 stamped stator with rounded poles, which I am guessing is Aluminium? (dammit).

I have 3x 56 magnet caps, 2 are white, 1 is grey.
And 1x 48 magnet black cap.

The 36 pole stator came out of a WA70T60GW1 machine - 7kg machine, also marked with 92129-A.

Here are some pictures.

Cheers

BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 12:47am 29 Apr 2018

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Getting another one shortly, this is an Elba by F&P, hopefully is OK too.
WA65TM - 92206-A

And have found 2 others, both 92194-A from the listing above, which should be copper 36 pole in theory. But haven't secured those yet.

The 36 pole I have already is definitely AL, right?
Is there a reason the AL ones are not OK for this application?

DaveP68

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Joined: 25/11/2014
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 292

Posted: 02:07am 29 Apr 2018

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Hi BarkyJ

Yes the 36 pole stator pictured above is aluminium with AL60 printed on it.

The part # of a 36 pole copper stator is 420775P and this should be on a sticker located close to the 3 phase connection point.

Product codes 92204-A, 92206-A, 92206-A, & 92207-A should all have copper stators.

There are more product codes, but the list will just grow too big as I limited it to the most commonly made machines rather everything that was in production. Some models were only produced in limited numbers as weren't so popular.

Their were 2 Aluminium stators made with the early version having a resistance between phases of about 48 ohms, the later version that is still in production is now 38 ohms between phases.

The Aluminium stators aren't as efficient as the copper version due to their higher resistance. Also rewiring stators is generally done using solder that often contains tin and may cause an electrochemical corrosion problem due to its galvanic potential.

Their are plenty of 36 pole copper stators out there so stick with them.

The 0.6 mm wire that the 36 pole copper stator is viewed by some individuals as a limitation due to the lower current higher voltage produced. But this isn't a valid point with 12x wiring combinations (6x star or 6x delta) that can be done a wide variety of application can be covered. If more current is required at a lower operating voltage, just rewire it to suit that application.

The 42 pole stator (excluding 7 phase rewiring) have 8x rewiring combinations (4x star or 4x delta) per stator version. There of course are 3 different versions of 42 pole stator which does end up giving them a few more combinations in total. The 2 draw backs of 42 pole stators are a lower output power potential with the standard 56 magnet rotor cap and require decogging.

Hope my post isn't too long, just want to cover off a few not so obvious points.

There are realities if you do not accept, will lead to frustration because you will be spending time on wrong assumptions and the results cannot follow! The Dunning Kruger Effect :)

flc1
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Joined: 20/11/2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 242

Posted: 02:12am 29 Apr 2018

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AL is ok to use but its a bastard to try to solder ,,copper conducts electricity better than AL ,so you should get a bit more power from a copper stator with a black cap.

BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 02:28am 29 Apr 2018

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So the ALBA machine I just got is marked 92206-A, and its 36 pole Copper with a white rotor with 16 (48) Magnets :)

I then dropped off all the other junk at the Dump shop and had another look and saw I missed a stator, which is also 36 pole Copper :)

So now I have 2x 36 pole copper, 1x 36 pole Aluminium, and 2x 48 Magnet rotors (1 black, 1 white)

BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 02:32am 29 Apr 2018

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No stickers on these ones, but clearly marked CU.

DaveP68

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Joined: 25/11/2014
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Posts: 292

Posted: 02:48am 29 Apr 2018

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Yep they are both 36 pole copper stators.

A word of caution relating to rewiring these or any other stators. Once it's been rewired to the chosen setup, it is not always possible to rewire to a different setup! It can be one way trip if you get what I mean.

Feel free to as any questions regarding rewiring them.

P.S. edit, make sure you now have 2x black rotor caps to go with these 36 pole copper stators to gain the maximum power output potential.Edited by DaveP68 2018-04-30

There are realities if you do not accept, will lead to frustration because you will be spending time on wrong assumptions and the results cannot follow! The Dunning Kruger Effect :)

BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 06:24am 29 Apr 2018

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Thanks Dave,

Yeah at the moment I only have 1 black cap, but hunting for another. At least though I do have a white cap which matches, but isnt the higher power version obviously.

So black caps only came with 36 pole AL stators? and the 36 pole CU stators all had the white caps?
Then the older 42 pole stators had a mixture of white and grey caps it seems.

Why do you say its not always possible to rewire a different setup? Understand its cutting windings etc, so joining them up isnt exactly ideal, but It shouldnt be a one way path surely...

Once I find another black cap, I guess its a decision I then need to make, on how I proceed with the next part.

As has been mentioned previously, 12V/24V systems dont seem to be recommended..., so I guess we are now talking 48V as being the standard? Sadly does mean 4 batteries just to get up to that voltage, but I guess thats just part of it.

What I was ideally wanting to do, as mentioned already, was to get something at least contributing to hot water. If I had wind powering the water cyclinder which is thermostat controlled, and then maybe 5am it cuts back to mains to ensure there is hot water for the morning. Switch the wind to bypass to a heater element or something when thermostat is to temp, or its selected on mains.

Generating mains voltage I guess isn't ideal, but does it make sense if using it for something like water heating? Or is it still best to go into batteries, and then use a DC element, or invert it back into mains? I am not sure what is best practice here. I have seen on Aliexpress 24/36/48V DC elements, ranging from around 900W to 2000W or something. Next question would be plumbing 2 elements into a single cyclinder, or having a secondary cyclinder in parallel or something like that. All details to figure out I guess.

At this stage I just want to set up a trial. This property isn't ideal for a large windmill, so if I can get some sort of hobby system up and running to learn from, that would be a good start. Have to get the generator built, then figure out the windmill, then figure out what comes next, so still a lot of steps I need to go through I know.

flc1
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Joined: 20/11/2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 242

Posted: 08:53am 29 Apr 2018

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what Dave means about rewireing a stator is that it gets difficult and messy when you try to rewire a stator too many times,

might be an idea to practice on your alu stators first,

DaveP68

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Joined: 25/11/2014
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Posts: 292

Posted: 12:30am 30 Apr 2018

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Yes the CU stators only have the white caps and the AL stators only have the black caps so you need to find another machine with an AL stator to get a 2nd black cap.

Fred is the first person I know of to make use of the CU stators and black caps to improved the output power on both of his wind turbine builds.

There are realities if you do not accept, will lead to frustration because you will be spending time on wrong assumptions and the results cannot follow! The Dunning Kruger Effect :)

BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 01:01am 30 Apr 2018

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Neat, thanks guys.

In terms of the electronics to charge batteries, and the coil arrangements, I have a few questions.

So if I pick a basic wiring arrangement of the stator, say a 4x3C, for a 24V system. In the table on the rewiring page it lists star and delta configurations and RPM's. So in Star, you start getting 24V at about 81RPM with the 36 pole with black cap, and in delta you get it at about 140RPM, is that me reading the table right?
At what point does it start to drop off, do you know? Like in a high wind, I imagine the star configuration would not fare as well... Which I guess is where you start getting into the staggered setups and dual stators etc, to make use of all sorts of wind, right? or is it more about making better use of high wind to make more power, rather than the power dropping off in high wind?

When wired in 4x3C for 24V, what is the actual voltage range you get out, approximately? or is it always about 24V, but the amperage just increases with a higher wind? What about unloaded, does the voltage just keep increasing?

If you rectify that into DC, and chuck that directly into a battery, then I imagine you getting into battery boiling territory pretty quick, as you have no voltage/charge control, and no way to shut things down when the battery is full.

So if you then put a relay in line, and a monitor on the battery to switch the load onto a dummy load instead of the battery when its full, then that solves the over charging issue, but this still has no voltage control for what voltage you are actually charging at...

So for small setups, what do people use?
I have seen a number of builds with what look like expensive controllers etc. But did you start with something cheap and progress to those? Im just trying to find a reference point to start with, and whether or not I buy something or make something to suit - its just the starting point I need.

Having never played with windmills, and therefore I dont know when you wire one up in say 4x3C 24V, what is the voltage range you get out after rectifying it. If I know that, then I could build something to regulate that down into battery charging territory, and have a cut off to dummy load, and battery monitoring etc. But I just dont know what ranges to expect.

Also is there an approximate wattage output you get from a single 36 pole with black cap, in an average installation? I imagine it comes down to a lot of factors, and i haven't even started looking up the prop or size of that, or even what torque is required to turn one of these things... but in terms of sizing a charging controller, what should I be aiming for?

I am very much use to dealing with stable voltage input sources, not variable and intermittent as you get from these windmills, so please forgive the ignorance.

Without getting too deep immediately, I think I want to do a test setup with 24V, and then move to 48V longer term.

Sorry for the long post, I hope someone can give me a nudge in the right direction.Edited by BarkyJ 2018-05-01

flc1
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Joined: 20/11/2011
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Posted: 07:22am 02 May 2018

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Gday Barky,
seems like you are on your way to working things out, open circut voltage (no load) can be up in the 200-1000v, depending on you stator cut....very leathal. if you have large capacity batterys they will handle whatever your turbine throws at it,
but I would suggest you spend a little money and get a 20-30 amp charge controller with dumpload for your batterys at the very least,save you the hassel of trying to build somthing ,,,and cooking your batterys

BarkyJ
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Joined: 26/04/2018
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 114

Posted: 09:57am 02 May 2018

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Thanks.

I have been thinking.

To start with, I wonder if I should just rectify the windmill power, aiming at 24V, and put that directly into a dual hot water cylinder AC/DC element, which will serve as a dump load, as well as testing out the windmill. This then means I don't need batteries to start with, nor do I need a controller for the batteries.

I am thinking of building a different sort of controller which will PWM the element (load) at a fast rate, to regulate the average load seen on the windmill. So say I have a 900W 24V load, being the DC side of the element into my hot water cylinder. If the windmill is just ticking over, then I can put say 10% duty on the PWM, and put that into the cylinder. If its flying around, then I can put 100% duty into the cylinder. I can monitor the voltage coming in from the windmill and adjust the output load to suit. This will then allow me to map the windmill, see what its capable of, and then sort the battery side of things for alternate use of the power, other than for water heating.

I found a seller on Aliexpress who makes DC elements for hot water cylinders, and they can make me a dual AC/DC version. Have say 2000-3000W or so on the AC side, and then a separate 900W 24V ring also. Both could be run at the same time, but I would likely have my controller which is handing the PWM above, to switch in and out the mains depending on water temperate and time of the day, and incoming power etc.

The aim being, all day/night the cylinder is being charged with the windmill. If it gets to 5am and the cylinder has not had much charging, then enable the AC, and warm it up before morning showers are needed, then shut it off about 7am or something, and go back to just windmill powered.

Hot water is the main thing that eats our power bill. We have a mains pressure electric cylinder, and we have a tenant in a self contained sleepout off the side of our house which also uses our cylinder for hot water, so 3 adults, 2 kids. If I can supplement the heating of the cylinder, without having to go with batteries etc just yet, then I think there would be quite a cost saving on power just for that.

It ends up being quite simple too.

Then once I figure out the capability of the windmill, and how much power I can realistically get out of it during an average 24h, then I can plan the next step. Powering the house off batteries just wont happen, but supplementing hot water power with wind I think would be the ticket.

Just in discussion with the AC/DC element guy at the moment, to see if I can get a sample made, and see how much it will cost. I found one on Trademe, similar thing, but the DC side was 7ohms, so it needs like 170V or something to get full 600W, and at 24V it was only about 80W which is a bit useless. Whereas the one I am looking at would be 0.64ohms, so would dump like 37.5A at 24V at full PWM, or I could drop that right back depending on wind speed.

Would love to hear peoples thoughts - as you guys know alot more than me about windmills :)

Thanks

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