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Forum Index : Electronics : Rotten cables....
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9308 |
I pulled a ceiling rose off my house today to find out why it was loose - it was broken, but as I pulled the rose down a little, all the insulation fell off the cables, and the wires are now bare.   This house was built in the early 60's, and they have used that old rubber cable for most of the runs, so now not only do I have to replace the ceiling rose, but I have to replace the cable runs too. Grrrr.....  ...and being a fuse-protected panel, there are only two fuses for the whole house, so this stuff has probably been looped @%#! everywhere.... Both lighting fuses will remain out until I can fix this, as I don't want bad cables and/or exposed live wiring floating around the place. I will have to make sure I bring in a few lamps I can run from the wall sockets for the next few nights!  Oh well. Win some, lose some. At least with it being my house, I can do the work myself and not have to pay an electrician. The outside light has the same issue, but I have been ignoring it. I will probably pull in a new feed to there too, so I can then fit it with a motion detector arrangement - I have been wanting to do that for a while, but was put off by the fact I knew I would have to pull in new cable. I don't really want to think about all the 2.5 T&E feeding the various outlets that is probably also that rubber 1960's stuff.... I won't be pulling off any power outlets to find out at this stage.  At least if I fix the lighting runs, I can then have lights to see to fix the others if I need to. Priorities!  Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| BenandAmber Guru  Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961 |
I don't know how you guys in New Zealand wire your Outlets Or exactly what your outlets look If they are similar to the ones in the United States i always put Piggy Tales on mine instead of running them through the socket that way if the socket goes bad the rest of the Run still works and it's easy to find the bad socket And it's not very bad to rewire a whole house That is if it's a studded wall You may have get a assistant to help you pull the wire Easily done on a weekend main panel and all be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks |
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| Solar Mike Guru Joined: 08/02/2015 Location: New ZealandPosts: 1138 |
At least you aren't having to replace rubber wires inside steel conduit; thats what I had to do on an old house built in 1937, was easier to rip it all out including the Gib on the walls with its 12 layers of old wallpaper.  Mike |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I had something very similar. On the north side is a sun room with an almost flat galvanised iron roof. The roof iron needed replacing, but when I ripped it all up, underneath was the wiring to the light. That was the same old TRS hard rubber wire, but through countless dozens of summers, right underneath that iron roof under the blazing sun, all the rubber had disintegrated into dust and vanished. Except directly beneath each rafter where a couple of inches remained. Absolutely bare parallel wires about 6mm apart. Yikes !!! Cheers, Tony. |
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| BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961 |
We have that old cloth wrapped wire here in the states Has some kind of gray metallic paint or something on the outside of it And I have rewired a few that have literally bare wire on glass insulators The old receptacles probably are not where you would like them to be And there's probably not enough of them You can figure out where you want your new ones to be use Wing boxes go ahead and cut the holes Then it's pretty easy to find your fish tape If you're running through the attic you'll probably need a right angle drill I'm sure you already know this but I'm staying up for other people that reads this form that wire nut is a insulator not a fastener twist your wires Tape just gives it something catch on fire Wish I was your neighbor I would come over and help you do it for free be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9308 |
@ BenAndAmber - I know the pigtail things you are referring to, but I don't think it is legal here in NZ to use those. You can get single grub-screw things, and that is what all the sparkies use. I have a pottle of them, should I need any. @ Warpspeed - Yikes indeed!  At least you found it before someone not in the know got a belt off it.While tracing the cables tonight, I have found that they have looped it to all the lighting in the house, except the rear two rooms, which are on the 2nd fuse. The rear two rooms were added on when I was just a nipper(very young boy), so I guess they elected to put another fuse in for those rooms. I still remember dad building those extra rooms, but I was probably only 7-ish at the time. Anyway, just gently bending the phase around in the back of the main panel to see where it was feed from, a whole heap of insulation fell off that wire too, so that is a completely bare phase now, so the main outgoing supply past the fuse will also have to be ripped out and replaced. I am toying with the idea of just rewiring the entire place - as mentioned, it can all be done in a day with a helper, and can all be fitted off the next day. Could do it all in a weekend. They have used 1mm twin for all the lighting circuits. No earth circuit. You can still get plain old twin, but it costs more then 1mm T&E, so I will run that. My only concern is that if they have made the holes in the dwangs a little on the small side, trying to pull in multiple T&E cables might not fit thought the holes that were drilled way back when the house was being built. Hope not.... The old rubber cables will make excellent draw-wires to pull the new stuff in, so there is that! Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9308 |
Here is another image from the back of the main panel:  Note the red phase wire about the middle of the image, where all the insulation has broken off. This is the outgoing phase to the lighting circuit. Not good. I suppose that TECHNICALLY, you would have to open this main panel to be exposed to this, but still..... Grogster is NOT happy. I will correct this. In this installation, the incoming phase is on the top of the fuse carrier, and the outgoing(load) is on the lower wires. Has been like this since I was a nipper. So that means that the bare wire phase as shown in this photo is the outgoing(load) side of the fuse, and the fuses are removed at present, so it is...safe enough for now... I will be replacing this feed and probably most of the others. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
One thing to think about with a rewire is to loops lighting circuits via the switches rather than the sockets (future proofing for IOT lol) One of the scariest I had was installing a new TV antenna in a elderly weatherboard farm house (they literally cut off trees at the same height and used those as stumps, so looking underneath was 'interesting' as none of the 'piers' were lined up...) It was wired up with the very old (now) cotton covered over natural rubber wires, which had literally rotted away and there were exposed copper bits everywhere in the roof cavity... which was full of dried grass from birds nests (open eaves) Climbed up the ladder, took one look inside at the bare wires only a foot away from the manhole, climbed down and told them -uhuh, no way am I going up there with the power on... Gave them a look and was told they would call me back in a few weeks... Got a call, and it was all fully rewired- Electrician actually brought down some charred grass from where it had almost caught fire.... Scary stuff (one of many over the years) |
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| BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961 |
When they change the code here in the United States a few years back they changed the code to you have to use pigtails They also change code that you have to have an extra wire when running to any light Just changed a start run capacitor on a old ladies outside condensing unit the unit was almost 25 years and still kicking The old capacitor showed no signs of being bad I didn't charge her it was 9 4 degrees in her house today Me and my wife stop by my dad's house one day And my dad told me and my wife that the electric company had turned off half of his electricity Only one leg of the 220 was working so only half his Breakers was working in the United States we got to 110 legs which make 220 I got to looking around and someone had put in a 200-amp breaker box on the inside of the house But didn't change the hundred amp meter to a 200-amp meter It literally burnt 1/2 of the wire coming through the wall into black charred burn marks all up in the wall cavity By the way code says it has to be in conduit I could tell you horror stories all day long Codes are codes for reason be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9308 |
Scary stories.... Keep them coming though, as they ARE interesting to read. Here is the old cable, liberated from the switchboard:  Not really a lot of insulation left on that one...... The work has started, and I have pulled in a few new cable runs today after work. It will take a while, as I can really only do this after work each day, with the exception of the weekend, when I could rally the troops. EDIT: I have also elected to replace the old fuse carriers with MCB's for the two lighting circuits as I do this. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
tests? |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9308 |
Huh? Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
sighs I had a post, that disappeared (the forum was down quite a while with an error when posting- I actually wrote that hours ago) I don't have the original post still, but it was in reply to BenandAmber about colour codes and the difference between US and Au/NZ standards (many things legal under the US codes aren't legal in Au/NZ ie the US uses black as a Active, and white as a Neutral, where in Australia they are the opposite- white being a 3phase colour (phase 2) and black is of course a neutral in the fixed wiring TPE cabling and 3 phase I regularly used to work on imported US gear, and I made it a practice of actually rewiring the mains connection point to the AU colours either swapping wires out or sleeving in heatshrink, as many electricians here wired the active to the neutral, and vice versa, putting any fuse and switch in the neutral wire... (some early french kit used in signalling equipment had RED as the earth- you could imagine the possible result without a rewire to the mains connection point where most electricians would hook up to- especially since at the time the red/black/green cabling was the standard...Active to red and hmmmm...) |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9308 |
Ahh, I see.  Yes, you are right about the black USA phase vs our Neutral. I am pretty sure that their Neutral is white.(EDIT: Opps! Re-read your post...) I think they also use the metal conduit or gooseneck stuff as the earth conductor. I am going to run another cable now, so....onwards and upwards! Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
Least you got that option, here in Au of course we can't (unless licenced sparky) even though we share the common Au/NZ standard... Yep, the yanks use a black active and a white neutral for their 120v stuff, and a red for the other phase to give them their H/D 220v for stoves etc eta so their 220v split phase is red to black- but they are both actually actives... Luck with the wiring btw ETA remember- you are NOT french so red is NOT the earth LOL  |
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| BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961 |
Good Lord I be lost I think and yeah you guys are exactly right about how it's wired here in the United States Some stuff they do here in the United States just don't make any sense at all like the way we measure stuff I'm half tempted to switch over to metric it makes so much sense compared to what we do be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks |
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| stockleys Regular Member  Joined: 21/06/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 54 |
uk chiming in here out colours are live-brown neutral-blue 3 phase (order unknown) brown-l1 black-l2 greay-l3 blue-neutral it use to be brown-l1 yellow-l2 blue-l3 black neutral. i heard a few stories where withing 2 weeks of the change, sparkies were killed because they forgot black had become live and blue had become neutral. death by government legislation i call it. |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3150 |
>When they change the code here in the United States a few years back they changed the code to you have to use pigtails Can you explain this? >They also change code that you have to have an extra wire when running to any light And this? By "extra" do you mean a ground wire? It's been a couple of decades since I had electricians wire about a dozen houses I renovated, but back then I never saw what I would call "pigtails" on electrical outlets. Is this so that a circuit can't be continued through the two connected screw terminals on the outlet, since it is possible to break off the connection so that each socket can be on a separate circuit? I've seen an ancient outlet with the body so disintegrated that the screw terminals were dangling. The outlet didn't work, but the ones downstream from it still did. PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
The Aussie/ZN use the brown A, blue N, green/yellow E for single phase cords, but we still use red A, black N, green/yellow for TPE (twin/two plus earth) fixed cabling (go figure) and for 3 phase, its red A1, white A2, blue A3, black N, green/yellow E (sometimes A2 is yellow, but I haven't seen much of this, not sure if it was officially ever allowed or not- when I did my apprenticeship, yellow and/or green were reserved for earths only) (so we STILL got blue as either a N or an A, depending on usage...)  Sparkies learned a couple of little ditties as apprentices, it was easy to remember the red= +/A thus black was the -/N and if you made a mistake, you'd be black and blue..... (ie N must be blue too) And for 3phase, just remember the yanks flag- red, white and blue.... We had one for the resister/capacitor colour code as well (which I still remember quite plainly) but these days- well it wasn't very 'politically correct' LOL- certainly not something I'd put up on the forum in public - it ticked all the boxes (bit of casual racism, sexual abuse etc, no way would they allow it these days) Re the extra cabling to light switches, it's been required for a while for all lighting circuits to have the earth fitted (so TPE, rather than twin) but it was the norm to chain at the bulb and just have a twin down to the light switch from the light fitting, now it's becoming the norm (especially with touch or smart switches becoming more common) to chain at the light switch ie TPE to the switch, and again up to the light fitting, with the chain to the next room coming from the switch rather than the light fitting... (if that makes sense) So an older house would have the feed go to the light fitting, then onto the next light fitting and so on, with a twin (red/white) dropping from each light fitting to it's switch... (so A and Switched only at each switch) Now its TPE feed to the light switch, with a chain feed from the switch to the next rooms switch and a separate TPE to the lamp fitting... This gives you an A,N and E at each switch position for smart switches etc (for multiswitches, you often have a single feed TPE dropping from a junction box above it, and all the various N/E are joined in the junction box rather than trying to cram everything in the wall)  |
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| BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961 |
Lizby pigtailing outlets is when you don't depend on the Outlet to carry the current to the next Outlet You are required by code to do this to the ground And it is good practice to do it with all the wires When an outlet goes bad and they do quite often because of overloading and being made cheap to begin with Not all the outlets beyond the bad Outlet are interrupted when using pigtails on all wires When you have a three story house when including a finished basement Outlets hiding behind dressers and other furniture between the three levels sometimes there's been two or three remodels With drop ceilings and good intentioned but non certified electricians just adding on to and the end of a string without knowing how many outlets are already on that string It can be a real pain in the neck to try to get it all figured out taking hours instead of minutes So if you pigtail to every Outlet you have to do the ground anyway then only the single outlet quit working and it is easily found because it's the one that's not working As far as a light fixture it is required that all light fixtures are grounded now I was told by the building inspector several years back that instead of two shielded conductors and a ground they are going to require 3 conductors and a ground I was told that there is some stipulations to this though having to do with how accessible the wiring path is All building inspectors are different from town to town usually not very much there is a national code that we all have to go by but then there is extra that the local building inspector requires The way I was told this extra conductor usually red was going to be put in the new National code and the ground has been there for quite a while This extra wire is a good ideal anyway we don't just have lights at light fixtures anymore Nevertheless it's always been good practice all the electricians that care about what they're doing put Pigtails in not only for themselves but for the person that comes after them If you ever see an electrician that puts the wires in the little holes on the back of the receptacle Fire them and get you another one that cares When you wire anyting at anyone's home their lives their families lives are in your hands you should take every precaution possible just like it was your own life or families life be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks |
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