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George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308
Posted: 06:55am 27 Feb 2018
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Last week went interstate to see a mate and his new first Child. Beautiful little girl that has him and the partner in a spin but really is a fantastic Baby. looked after her for half a day myself and she was no trouble, Bottle, Change, sleep.
Mate has a salt water chlorination on his pool that is older than me. Typical ancient affair that is basically a rectified Transformer. Thought it would be a piece of cake but not so smart now.
Tested the bolt type Diodes and As I suspected, were Kaput. No current either direction. Transformer was fine. Took different things I thought I'd need but didn't have any diodes that type and couldn't get any so I used a 3 phase Bridge rectifier.
Transformer has 2 leads coming off one side and another ground. The ground goes straight to the cell, the other two leads went to the diodes and then output together tho the other lead of the salt cell.
I Took the 2 leads off the tranny to the diodes and attached them to 2 pins of the rectifier and the pos side to the output which was all as marked. Got the right Voltages, polarity and max amperage's at the cell. I don't believe it is working though.
When I put an amp meter across the cell plates ( just a pos and neg side) I get all the right numbers, when I put it on the pool filter that I took a couple of days to get salt, Chlorine and everything else right, the gauge on the unit which comes up when I put the amp meter across it reads nothing. I did dump a load of salt in the skimmer box and the reading of the meter went to where it should then fell back when the brine as it would have been went through. Everything seems to be as it should but but does not seem to be producing.
I don't think it is working but not sure where I went wrong. Used both outputs of the rectifier in turn with same result. Was I wrong to use the bridge rectifier instead of just the Diodes? I thought they did the same thing and since the bridge I had was over double rating of the output, I thought it would be fine.
It's remotely possible the thing is working but I'm not confident. Has the volts there but it seems not the amps as that's all the salt gauge obviously is. I have made these things myself in the back yard as dummy loads. Can't figure why it didn't work this time, can only assume it was the bridge or possibly there is something wrong with the cell in having lost some plating or and earth connection or something. there was a 3rd wire on the cell that went no where on the control box and didn't look like it ever had.
far as I can tell this should only need the Pos and neg but is there something there I'm missing? Doing my head in. Don't a couple of these things before with no probs but this is laughing at me.
Mate was happy though, fixed to toilets, found the leak in the Gas BBQ, Fixed some doors and windows, Re hung the front gate and fixed the clothes dryer that had stopped working.
Bloody Chlorinator has me stumped though.
George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308
Posted: 12:56am 28 Feb 2018
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Maybe I did it right then?
Phil23 Guru Joined: 27/03/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1664
Posted: 08:19pm 01 Mar 2018
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Dunno,
Sounds good to me, but....
You got some current when you dumped salt in the skimmer box. That would have been a really high concentration.
Maybe the Salt Cell, or whatever they call it has failed, it is a kind of load.
Got the impression they are something that needs replacing with time as plates deteriorate.
Phil.
Phil23 Guru Joined: 27/03/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1664
Posted: 08:32pm 01 Mar 2018
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Grrr,
Don't mention leaking BBQ's, had one recently, amidst a weekend full of visitors & the continual pressure to cook.
Relatively new 4 burner Weber. Could sometimes smell it, sometimes not, not even noticed some days earlier at it's last use.
Spray sudds, looked wiggled, checked connections, it would not go away, but the waft came & went.
Tackled it again Monday arvo after all the guests had left & had peace & quite to think.
Turned the bottle on & heard the hiss.... Wok burner set on low.
Lifted the lid to turn it off & found the 5yr olds missing toy car....
Hmmmm.
Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498
Posted: 08:39pm 01 Mar 2018
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If that gas mixture under the cover did ignite you might have needed a change of underwear.There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Phil23 Guru Joined: 27/03/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1664
Posted: 09:35pm 01 Mar 2018
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Absolutely,
During the checking I was only putting it down to one of those instances where one side of a burner goes out & keeps relighting.
Whatever happened to Don't Touch Things?
I learnt that rule; it's why I still have fingers.....
George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308
Posted: 03:45am 02 Mar 2018
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Spoke to mate last Night. He reckons pool has never looked better. Still not convinced the thing is working properly but I'll be back there in a month it seems so if it's not working can have another look.
I reckon it could be the cell as well. I should have checked the resistance on the thing. I metered the thing with amps and volts and it was spot on so the right power must be getting there, wether it's being put to work properly is the question.
I know those plates are coated, I wonder if that is anything to do with the process or just to make them last longer? If it was just longevity, I could fashion some up out of sheet or plate and just replace them as needed. If I had a chlorine test kit I could fashion some up, put them on a battery charger in some salt water and see if I could turn water and salt into chlorine.
Old mate was complaining about the amount of gas BBQ was going through. I turned on the bottle and could hear then FEEL the leak. how the hell the gas didn't catch where it was coming from I have no idea. Anyway, New hose and I'm sure the thing will get an extra 100 Steaks per bottle now.
Mate rang to say he wasn't happy with me despite the pool, Bbw, toilets, dryer and all the rest I did. Mrs is now on his case I came up and fixed all these things she had been asking him for months to do and he never does a thing.
OOOPS! Think I inadvertently stabbed him in the back. I sent him one of those cartoon things ( memes?) I have. " I will do everything you ask me to do dear. There is no need to keep nagging me every 6 months."
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 513
Posted: 06:39am 02 Mar 2018
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George, they also have to reverse the polarity regularly or they get a build up of calcium on the plates... yhey might need replacing. .. i know my controller automatically does this every 6 hours of tun time..I think it works !!
George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308
Posted: 12:58pm 02 Mar 2018
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I saw the self clean thing when researching these clorinators but this machine is old and does need the plates cleaned by putting them in a weak acid solution. Definitely no mechanism to reverse the polarity in this thing.
Wonder if there is a simple way to make these things reverse polarity?
Love to know if there is something on the plates other than to make them last.
Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814
Posted: 04:18pm 02 Mar 2018
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Simplest way would be a dpdt switch rated for the amp/voltage placed inline, wired as a reversing switch and mounted in a suitable enclosure- mark one way run and the other clean, with instructions to put it in 'clean' for so many hours every so long
(eg purely as an example-'Switch to clean for 24 hrs every 3 months'- those figures may not be correct or appropriate)
Phil23 Guru Joined: 27/03/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1664
Posted: 08:40pm 02 Mar 2018
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Just asked Google about that....
Approximately 10,000 hours; 3 to 5 years was the first thing I read.
Never owned a pool, but have heard a few people mention replacing them in an as you do context.
Phil.
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 07:57am 03 Mar 2018
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the plates are a grade 1 titanium with a mmo coating (mixed metal oxide) usually ruthenium/ iridium/ ruthenium oxide. platinum coating wont cut the mustard.
the older mesh types are available because they are used for lots of electrolysis processes.
the only catch is how they are fixed in place, it looks to be spot welded to the titanium bolt, that is about the only way to be sure of a lasting electrical connection. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
George65 Guru Joined: 18/09/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 308
Posted: 02:35pm 03 Mar 2018
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But are those coatings to give the cells a longer life or to enhance the reaction/ Chemical process?
If it's just to make the things last longer, I could fashion up some plates out of steel, aluminum, copper or whatever and if they lasted 6 months and had to be replaced, no biggie. They would cost peanuts compared to the $3-600 they normally cost.
I did see in my research they have gone from the mesh to the flat plates. The one on my mates chlorination are just 2 long plates, about 50 Cm. Some are multi plate I assume to get a larger surface area in a shorter package.
I also found that there are commercial Chlorine machines available that make the Sodium hypocrite for cleaning and disinfecting purposes. Same process, add salt to a tank, machine runs it through an electro process and after whatever time you have a tank of chlorine solution. Some machines even allow you to control the strength of the solution's produced.
One thing I note that is different to the electrolisis I have plyed with is the clorine produced is clear with the familiar yellow tinge. When I have done it, and can't remember if I used salt, the water turned a turgid grey colour which was obviously the metal being dissolved into the solution.
I wonder if the clear product is due to the electrodes, the catalyst or the amount of current applied? I know the last time I did it was to make a generator load cell. I used Caustic as the catalyst and pumped about 1 KW into the solution. Consequently I also created a Kettle because the water boiled in pretty short order.
I'd like to have a go at doing this with salt to make Chlorine. Plenty of things round here I could use some Chlorine solution to clean. Getting the leaf stains out the white sandstone pavers would put me in the good books with the mrs for a start as would killing off all the weeds in between at the same time.
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 01:04am 04 Mar 2018
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Dont quote me on this but i think it is mainly to do with the reaction. Making Chlorine at room temperature shifts the solution alkaline and makes the ions that are freed quite reactive with the plates (hence the calcium buildup and rapid high resistance and the use of phos acid and HCL acid). I know that platinum will contaminate over time and stop working under these conditions.
the cloudy look in the water should be chlorine gas bubbles, you can test its strength with a pool chlorine test. Just dilute the solution I dont know, try 5 times to start with so that the test is in range (or it will bleach the test strip white)
Some water treatment places use products like chlorine and ammonia in combination and it forms a chloramine byproduct in the water, this stuff is surprisingly hard to get out of the water and it kills fish in very low concentrations and can screw with water testing.
if you are just playing around some stainless would be OK for a cathode and maybe some graphite or carbon rod for the anode or chromium, sidchrome spanners??? I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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