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Forum Index : Electronics : 30 KWH Vanadium Redox Flow Battery
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Madness Guru  Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Just saw these Vanadium Redox Flow Batteries on Alibaba, 30KWH $15,500 USD landed in Brisbane. I wonder how hard would it be to build one   2017-10-27_074606_JR-VFB-5kW30kWh_Vanadium_Flow_Battery.pdf There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 513 |
Excuse my stupidity. .. how does it work??  I think it works !! |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
If you look here it will give you an overview. The electrolyte is charged and pumped through the plates, the more electrolyte you have the more capacity. This video gives a good simple explanation of how it works and to build one. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Do a search of king island vanadium battery... or see this http://www.kingislandrenewableenergy.com.au/project-information/energy-storage-system Many millions of dollars later, and they finally saw the light and went for..... wait for it.... lead acid. The bottom paragraph tells a quick clean version of a very sorry tale. If you ask a Hydro person on this island about the King Island Vanadium battery... they simply say... we don't talk about the king island vanadium thing. ..........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I see, the University of Queensland was trialing one for a year and then it was removed but no real information about why that I have seen. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
It is a secret vanadium thing.... the Govt pays for these things, and then the Govt throws them away... it helps eat up the renewable technology yearly account allocation, with feel good press about cutting edge technology. Lets face it, there have been no real tech improvements in the last thirty years, except for the price of panels coming down, and better electronics. It is win win, as after they throw it out, they don't need a team of boffins to maintain it, and they can do it all over again if necessary.... and hold a committee of inquiry as to who was to blame.....and then sit around and drink more of the departmental port. I thought it was interesting that the Hydro once burnt with cutting edge, went for 100 year old technology. They must agree with me, that the best bang for buck is still lead ( I prefer flooded, but I can see why they could not go that route). They did not need another tech debarkle too I imagine. ..........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
The CSIRO in Melbourne have been messing about with pumped fluid storage and hydrogen fuel cells, and many other exotic technologies for literally DECADES. Its a great way to eat up government grants and get academic papers published. But nothing useful has ever come out of it, and probably never will. There are always huge problems which make most of these things either impractical, unreliable, or hugely uneconomic. If government funded labs with almost unlimited time and resources fail, I doubt of "Joe the tinkerer" could build one out in his back shed with parts salvaged from the local tip. Cheers, Tony. |
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| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
I tracked this down https://hub.globalccsinstitute.com/publications/electricity-storage-and-renewables-island-power-guide-decision-makers/5d -king-island It seems to be a clear eyed view of both what happened, and what the project manager from Hydro learnt from the whole thing.....68000 liters of gunk and $20000/kwh is an expensive snafu to learn from It does not mention that it never ran for more than a few months as far as local knowledge is concerned. The words of the Hydro bloke reflect a lot of my ideas on my system. Build it tough Understand it thoroughly Is it repairable with basic equipment Can the whole system withstand unexpected events ( lightning too?) Dont try to be a first adapter, unless you invented it, and can control outcomes. No technologies that can be destroyed by a simple component failure. ( eg lithium batts) So I have my own inverter, built my own first 5kw of panels, my own chargers etc. Use flooded lead acid that can withstand massive over charge if controllers fail for a day or so. ( panels are only 60v ) So no delicate battery tech ( lithium anykind ), no commercial equipment I cant fix on the spot. No trackers ( roaring forties remember). I don't bother with myriads of monitoring gear, as it adds nothing to the reliability of the system, and is just a waste of time. It works properly or it does not. If it does not, then fix it and move on. Thats my notes for remote living off grid. You want power all the time, not sometimes. In real remote, failure of parts can be weeks from repair or longer. Thats not on. Unless I can make the membrane out of the lining of a sheeps stomach, and use cow dung for the different ionic states of quasi organic molecules to make up the redox reaction of my hypothetical sheep and cow battery... And...if it works I will start up a company with a dozen star pickets and a Poll Hereford bull and go global..... perhaps sell it to the Hydro... they seem gullible enough. ......oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Sometimes it is people who think outside the box and not trained to believe things are impossible that achieve results. Yes many fail but sometimes it happens, my grandfathers cousin Kurt Johannsen built a successful wood gasifier during WWII. But could not get anyone to take notice. He ended up driving all around Australia with it powered by wood from the side of the road. He also invented the road train and his original truck "Big Bertha" is in the transport hall of fame. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Well, you can stick two nails in a lemon and make a battery. But its a very long way from being a practical device. Cheers, Tony. |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I found this about King Island "An overcharging event led to overheating of the electrolyte, which in turn damaged the cell stack membrane. The damage was found to be unrepairable, and as of 2011 the VRB system was still out of service." Perhaps better safeguards would have prevented the failure? Maybe lemons and bullsh*t would be better. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1026 |
Thats sound advice Oztules I don't want any downtime from things that suddenly fail, always have a backup or something I can fix in a hurry. I still keep an opened mind on new gear and work out if it can be modified to suit what I want. I did look at this redflow thing year's ago they had them running in a shipping container and required a lot maintenance. Aaron Cheers Aaron Off The Grid |
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| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
My link did not work, so here is the information King Island is one of the islands of the Australian state of Tasmania and has a population of about 1,700 people. The King Island electricity system is owned and maintained by a government-owned generator/retailer, Hydro Tasmania and supplies a mixture of residential, commercial and industrial customers. The electricity system was originally designed as an all-diesel system. However, high diesel fuel costs led to the installation of three 250 kW wind turbines in 1998, followed by two 850 kW wind turbines in 2003. At that time, a vanadium redox battery (VRB) energy storage system was installed "to increase the recoverable portion of renewable energy and to smooth the variable output of the wind farm to enhance the use of wind power to displace diesel generation" (Hydro Tasmania, undated). The VRB storage system had "68,000 litres of electrolyte contained in four plastic tanks, 6 Sumitomo cell stacks, energy storage of 200 kW for four hours (800 kWh) and peak short-term output of 400 kW" (Hydro Tasmania, undated). The combination of wind turbines and the VRB storage system allowed for an approximately 35% reduction in diesel fuel use. In addition, a 100 kW solar PV system was added in 2010. An overcharging event led to overheating of the electrolyte, which in turn damaged the cell stack membrane. The damage was found to be unrepairable, and as of 2011 the VRB system was still out of service. There is much to be learned from King Island's experience. Simon Gamble, project manager for Hydro Tasmania, points to three distinct lessons: Understand the challenges that island locations face, particularly for emerging technologies. The simplest advice is to understand the nature of the remote location and what this means for logistics and support. This drives a focus on robust technical solutions that are tried and tested. One must strike the right balance between islands being excellent test beds for emerging technologies and the risk of an asset failure and the impact this can have on system performance. Understand the technologies as a system. Do not just focus on the storage technology but consider the full delivery system, including power and, of course, a fully scenario-tested control system with adequate interlocks. Invariably, there will always be a single point of failure that cannot be avoided. One needs to identify these points and ensure that they are all equally robust. Too much focus on chemistry and not enough on inverter cooling (as an example) can still lead to a failed venture. Work with an experienced supplier. Wind developers like to see 1,000 units in the group before they make a wind turbine order. This is not possible with island systems, and particularly storage. But one would ideally want a supplier who has worked in this space before and solved remote area location issues before. this is from https://hub.globalccsinstitute.com/publications/electricity-storage-and-renewables-island-power-guide-decision-makers/5d -king-island Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| isochronic Guru Joined: 21/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 689 |
It sounds like the vanadium redox system basically works ok but the necessary auxiliary systems like charge and electrolyte management need a fair bit of development. But that is a chicken-and-egg situation, it will take a number of installations at that scale to do that I guess. |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
All these demonstration images show only one cell and two tanks. What is not made clear is the voltage generated per cell. If multiple cells in series are required to generate a usable final voltage, does that require multiple isolated tanks and pumps ? If it does, as seems likely, that introduces a whole new level of complexity. The diagrams all show sulphuric acid in direct ionic contact with the output electrodes, so I am assuming the electrolyte runs at the same potential as the electrodes because its highly conductive and in direct contact. Having a multi cell battery is not such a big problem, although if every cell requires its own pump and dual tanks that certainly adds to complexity and possible points of failure. Cheers, Tony. |
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