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Forum Index : Windmills : Wind Powered Air Compressor
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steve o Newbie  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 9 |
Hello all, I bought a windcompressor windmill powered air compressor and have extra air in my two 1,100 gallons used propane tanks. The pressure in the tank is 175 PSI I trying to figure out the best way to turn the compressed air into heat for my shop. I was going to get an air motor and have it turn a generator then use an electric heater but I not sure if that is the best way to go or not. I have good winds and the windcompressor can keep the tanks full so using up the air is not going to be an issue. Thanks in advance for your help. Regards, Steve O |
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MacGyver Guru  Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Steve O Not sure I understand all I know about this. I've been building air-compressor wind turbines for 40 years, but it seems to me, if you want to HEAT your shop, BURN the propane. If I'm reading this wrong and you have two empty (formerly propane-hollding) tanks, then using compressed air to run a generator with a resistive load would do the trick. The only heat you can expect from compressing the air with a windmill or any other motive source, will be the "heat of compression" created by mashing the air molecules closer together. I believe Boyle's Law completely covers your results, with temperature and pressure being directly proportional (from memory). I specifically try to keep my compressed air as cool as possible, so I can capture more of it for use in my shop to blow metal shavings into places you wouldn't believe as well as into my eyes on occasion and for blowing up bicycle tires as well as for running any of the small "air engines" I like to build. These are basically "steam" engines with their timing adjusted to accommodate the lack of expansion (steam expands) from the cool compressed air. If you chose to build a small "air" engine, remember to keep your tolerances very LOOSE! These things like to run slopy. Personally, I usually make my pistons from hardwood like oak or hickory and use extruded-aluminum SQUARE tubes as cylinders. I know it sounds crazy, but it foregoes the need of a "cross-head" and actually takes several steps out of the equation; trust me -- been at this a long, long time! Hope I didn't rain on your parade. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
I would think making tolerances/clearances sloppy that you would end up with a very inefficeint motor, then again what size motor are you talking about ? PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| steve o Newbie Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 9 |
Hi Guys, Thank you for taking the time to reply Yes my two propane tanks are empty and now used to store my air from the windcompressor. I cant capture any of the heat from the compression due to the fact that the compressor is 60' up in the air and the line from the compressor to my tank is under ground where it crossed the driveway. The air motor is a Gast and is just under 1 HP. I was going to set it up in the shop and vent the air outside. Is there a air motor that you would recommend? Again thank you for your time Regards, Steve O |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Hi Steve O, I am assuming that you are looking for a way to use some of the excess air you have stored and not design a ground up heating system. The simplest thing that you could plumb in is a vortex tube. If nothing else it is a great party trick, I have used one on a lathe to cool the cutting tool, I still have trouble believing that it works. Have a look at this, it will give you some idea what I am talking about. Vortex Tubes | Airtx International If you are looking for small air motors a good starting point would be something that is geared down from 5000rpm to 1200rpm or there abouts. It is also handy to be able to service it without removing the motor from its installed position. I think some of the European stuff like Demag will do this. Unfortunately they chew a lot of air and can be pretty loud. Looking at the big facilities (like NASA's wind tunnels) you can see that they have tanks at different pressures and transfer from one to the next, right down to a vacuum and they extract heat on compression and inject it back in with heat exchangers as they expand the air. Recirculating a large percentage of the air and managing the heat CAN give large increases in efficiency, if it is done right, it also cuts out a lot of the noise and helps to keep everything clean and dry inside, reducing wear and tear. Just tossing ideas around here. Would there be a energy gain to storing it cold at 175psi, then solar heating a small tank after a regulator at 90 psi as your working pressure tank? I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| steve o Newbie Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 9 |
Hi Yahoo2, You are correct, I am not looking to design a ground up heating system. I must say the Vortex tube is one of the coolest devices I have seen in a long time. I cant wait to get one and try it. The model 20015 uses 15CFM at 100 PSI and puts out 1,100 BTU's. That should work out perfect and still leave me with plenty of air to run and electric generator as well. I'm not sure about an energy gain by storing the compressed air cold at 175 PSI and solar heating a small tank and at 90 PSI. I'll email the company windcompressor.com/ and see if they have any experience or knowledge Thanks for your ideas and help. Regards, Steve O |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Had a bit of a brain fade, the company I was thinking of was deprag not demag, they both make motors. never tried them myself. low cost air motors. At least it gives you an idea of what is around. Seems like a lot of air to me! that's about the same as my larger impact wrench's. I think I could make a heat pump work as a shop heater, particularly if the temp is boosted with evacuated tubes first, but my workshop is not insulated and winter is not long or cold here. Not really a priority for me...yet. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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Wombat Regular Member  Joined: 27/05/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 72 |
What the!? Vortex Tubes, Air Pumps.... I would never have thought it possible! With enough compressed air, you could cool a fridge and heat water??? Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle! ...If, when I get into turbines, I am now convinced that Air Turbines are a great way to go. I can see huge potential in doing this. Your dump load can be a generator to run an extra electric compressor Vortex Tube or battery charger... Now to get one of those big gas tanks you see at petrol stations... 
My mind boggles..  This is such a great site!
Russ  |
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| steve o Newbie Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 9 |
Hi Guy's, I'm sure there are better ways to use the extra air to heat the shop but I have to try the vortex tube. Its too cool not to play around with and try. I'm thinking I can even use it in the summer to cool the shop as well I'll be ordering it this weekend. Once I get it and play around I will post some pictures and let you know how it's working. I feel like a little kid in a candy store. Cant wait to get it. The wife thinks i'm nuts but what else is new. Regards, Steve O |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Big apology from me to your wife, Steve, I knew I shouldn't have posted that link to a nice shiny stainless steel toy. You have probably got that look that Homer Simpson gets when he thinks about doughnuts! A YouTube video of some crackpot with a mess of PVC pipe glued together might have been a little less of a temptation for you. I feel guilty now 
It would be great if you could do some posts about your stuff. I am sure I'm not the only one who is interested in what can be done with compressed air. yahoo I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
@ film I should clarify this a bit. I build nothing but "square" engines (stroke and bore the same dimension) and nothing over 2" (limited by my toy-sized machinery). If it were on the order of something larger, it would make more sense to build with tighter tolerances, but with the small stuff, it has to be built loose or it just won't work (too much internal friction). I should also note, there is a trade-off between rpm and torque. I tend to build slower things with high-end starting torque (referred to as "shaft" horsepower) as opposed to higher-speed engines offerig what is called "braking" horsepower. These tend to be fast and loud. Horsepower is a product of torque (firing pressure and stroke), it's that simple. Since I use compressed air, I can get as much "horsepower" out of a 2" square piston engine using tremendous input pressure as I can from a high-speed engine running at a lower firing pressure, but with a larger stroke and bore. It's kinda like hydraulics. @ steve o I built a vortex tube back in the day to use as a cooing device for machining steel. The idea was to spray the cutting surface with frozen air. Get ready for gobs and gobs of cfm as well as well as a screaming, ear-piercing sound out the cold end. The hot end does get pretty toastie, but the operating pressure has to be on the high side. Mine had a screw in the hot end, which ran past the exhaust port acting as a "throttle" more or less. I think I built the first one from something I saw in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science back in the day (mid-70's). A lot of the stuff done here on the 4m is more for fun than practicaity. Lots of the builders here (not me, mind you) are fantastic machinists and actually build working stuff. Hardly anyone here uses compressed air as a means to save and utilize wind power (like maybe I'm the only one here who does) so keep that in mind before you sink lots of $ into a project that looks to be a cool idea. Hope this helps. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| steve o Newbie Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 9 |
Hi Mac, I did order the Vortex tube and yes Im looking forward to playing with it and see how well it works. My thinking is since I have an unlimited supply of compressed air why not start playing around and see what I can do with it. Since i'm not running an electric compressor and I already have my windcompressor up and running I would like to experiment and take it to the max. Once I add the next storage tank I would like to try and create some electricity with it. As always Thank you for your time and input. Regards, Steve |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
steve o I've succssfully used old water heaters for air storage. Now, mind you, I was a plumber for 45 years, so I came across a water heater (usually electric) now and then, which the owner wanted to change out BEFORE it became a leaker. I would take it home and turn it into an air receiver. When you link several tanks together, it's good to put an air-check valve between each pair. That way, if something springs a leak, hopefully you won't spill off ALL your air. Of course, Murphy is ever-lurking and you can expect a disaster or two from him in the course of things. If the leak happens on the last in line, it all spills out! My experience with a vortex tube was that it made a much better heater than cooler and again, "mine" screamed and whistled to the point that I really needed ear protection if I was using it to cool a turning for any length of time. Maybe someone's worked out that bad feature; hopefully, the one you ordered isn't as loud as mine was. Once I'm more recovered from the December 19th tornado that zeroed in on my place here in Texas, I'll start building (and posting the builds here on the 4m) more air engines. An air engine, IMHO, is the best way to use wind power -- by storing the wind itself; very simple task really. Then, when power is to be extracted, whether it be 3-phase a.c. or single phase d.c., the appropriate engine and transmission can be applied and the power extracted at will. Like I said, just my humble opinion. Best wishes. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| steve o Newbie Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 9 |
Hi Guys, The Vortex tube came in the mail today. For some reason I thought it was going to be bigger that it is. It's about 10" long and has an adjustable knob on the hot air end. Looking forward to getting out to the shop and giving it a try. Ill take some pics and let you know how it works and how much air it uses up. Regards, Steve O 
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
How did the Vortex tube go? I've heard about these things, and saw a diagram on the internal workings once, but it would be interesting to hear about someones hands on experience. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
steve o I, like Glen, am curious how well this works. I too thought it would be larger, judging from the pictures shown on the Web site you droped a link for in a previous post. My bet is it "screams" just like the one I built back in the day. The knob on the end is nothing more than a threaded post that opens or closes the exhaust port and regulates the flow of air. The way this thing works (I think) is, the incoming air is whirled into a vortex, which in turn re-compresses the air to make the long end hot (heat of compression) while the high-speed air at the center of the vortex forms somewhat of a vacuum. The air exiting at the center (whirling at light speed!) comes out very cold. Were the working "fluid" a liquid (like refrigerant), the cold end would be similarly the result of expansion of a liquid in a partial vacuum. The "cold" would be derived from what is termed the "latent heat of vaporization" as a phase change from liquid to gas happens. The reaction is 'endothermic' (cold). Whatever the reason, these things DO work well, but you might want to put your range ears (hearing protectors) on before you fire it up the first time. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| steve o Newbie Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: United StatesPosts: 9 |
Hi Guys, The good side, the Vortex tube worked great The hot air comes out the side with the adjustment knob and the cold air comes out the other end. The less air you let flow out the hot end the hotter the air is. I ended up setting it in the middle of the adjustment and it worked perfectly. I added a hose to the cold end and vented it outside only to find out that it kills the effectiveness on the hot end. Ended up putting the Vortex tube outside and pointing the hot end into the shop. This was a big help with the noise and worked out well. The bad side, The noise is LOUD and it eats up the air much fasted then I had hoped. I started with my tank full at 175 psi. The Windcompressor was running in about 9 to 10 mph winds. After 35 minutes (forgot to check at the 30 min mark) the tank pressure was down to 105 psi. Once the tank pressure got down to about 75 psi I had to lower the amount of air coming out the hot end. Went back out to the shop on Saturday and ran it again. Tank started at 175 psi and the wind speed was 16 to 20 mph and after an hour the tank pressure was down to 110 psi. I am amazed how fast the Vortex tube goes through air and didn't realize how loud it was until I shut it off. Over all it worked out ok for now but I'm sure there has to be a more efficient way of using the air to heat the shop. Regards, Steve O |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
steve o The "Quote" code doesn't seem to be working, so: You said: Over all it worked out ok for now but I'm sure there has to be a more efficient way of using the air to heat the shop. Welcome to the world of inventing. The hard truth is, the amount of electricity you used to pump up all the air for use in your vortex tube (unless you actually used a wind turbine to pump things up), had it been run through a small electric heater, would likely put you way ahead on your efforts to heat your shop. I know that sucks, but that's just the way things work. I wish it were defferent, but them's the rules. Unfortunately, in most circumstances, things are done the way they are for a good reason. The reason is, someone else has already found a better way to do things. That's not to say you should give up. Heck no; keep on tryin' mate. Every now and then someone comes up with something really cool, so don't give up. The important thing most of the folks here on the 4m have discovered for themselves already is, even if you come up with something on your own that has already been invented back in the day, the important thing is for YOU it is an original invention. I think there's even a verse somewhere in the Bible that says, "There's nothing new under the sun" so don't dispair. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| MOBI Guru Joined: 02/12/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 819 |
keep on tryin' mate
Sounds like a bit of "strine" (down under talk for Australian). I love it. David M. |
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AMACK Senior Member  Joined: 31/05/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 184 |
Hi Steve, I have been following this post from the start and I too have toyed with the idea of using air as a storage device or fuel or whatever you would call it. I have a small creek that runs 12 months of the year and is about 200 meters from the house. I have worked out the cost of running power up to the house and it would take me two life times to get it to pay its self off and the loss and voltage drop would be to grate. I did look at sending air up to the house as 25mm poly pipe is cheap and easy to install underground with a tractor and pipe layer of which I have. The only thing that stops me is what to do with it at the other end that would make it worth doing..??????. I looked at air motors and vortex tubes but the numbers did not work out very well. That is just my though on it but I will still keep looking and trying to come up with a way to get it to work. AMACK *Note to self 1. Make it thick 2.Make it heavy. 3.Make it stronger than it should be. 4. Don't rush the first job as the second job will cost more and take mor |
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