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wallablack Senior Member Joined: 10/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 164
Posted: 02:52pm 18 Aug 2012
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Good Morning All......
I got a great little charge controller from Jason Markham yonks ago and want to change the 40A Relay to a 100A Continuous Cycle Solenoid/Relay. I have tried to do the rewire in different configurations but none seem to work. It seems such a simple conversion but why am I having so much greif with it. It's not the controller as it has been working perfectly with the 40amp.
Does anyone have any input that could help me with this? What wire goes where? I've confused myself. My source is the + and - from my rectifier of course and my dump load are just resistors as in the diagram but 4 @ 300W which are in one string.
Terminals 9 & 10 (at the top of the picture go to the relay coil, 9 being positive)go to the two small terminal on the front of the solenoid to operate the coil.
The terminal execution.
The diagram of the 30/40 realays use.
The Solenoid.
Help is hugely appreciated.Edited by wallablack 2012-08-20Foolproof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools.
yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166
Posted: 04:14pm 18 Aug 2012
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Hi Wallablack,
if you need us to read the diagrams posting as a gif file will help, the size limit is a lot bigger.
your old relay is listed as spdt (single pole double throw) so the power is always going somewhere, battery OR diversion. The 100 amp contactor is just on or off. the controller is designed to switch power output from terminal 87 to 87a on the old relay.
Is it 12 or 24 volt? I cant tell. The simplest solution is to find a SPDT relay, I do know where you can buy some good ones but the memory has deserted me.
NEEEEED COFFEE
EDIT forgot to mention, there is a fair bit of power going through the relay coil, may need to check that the circuit can handle it (could be up to 100mA) and perhaps consider wiring a diode across the coil terminals if the relay does not have one built in. The voltage spike when the coil de-energises can fry the transistors and a lot of other expensive stuff.
Edited by yahoo2 2012-08-20 I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...
wallablack Senior Member Joined: 10/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 164
Posted: 07:35pm 18 Aug 2012
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Try this:
Foolproof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools.
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 12:15am 19 Aug 2012
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A to supply V+
B to dump load resistors
9 to controller terminal
10 to controller terminal
Supply V- to other connection on the dump load resistors.
Take note of Yahoo2 comment about the solenoid requiring much greater power to drive the coil than the relay, it might overload the circuit of the controller trying to drive it, so you may be best to use the 40 amp relay to drive the solenoid.
Then you have the problem of powering the solenoid coil and if you use the power from the rectifer it is likely to switch off the solenoid when the dump load is on, hence disconnecting the dump load........not good.
Pete.Sometimes it just works
wallablack Senior Member Joined: 10/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 164
Posted: 01:22am 19 Aug 2012
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Soooooooooo....yay or nay?
An IRF540 drives the relay coil so it should be right, it is mounted to a good heat sink too. The regulator will get a heat sink too. I have no doubt at all that the circuitry will be okay. Foolproof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools.
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 03:19am 19 Aug 2012
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Yes that should work, EXCEPT! the circuit design will dump power from the windmill and the battery, i see this as a poor design because why do you need to dump power from the battery when you have taken all that time to put it there in the first place.
All that is required is to dump the power the mill generates (not the battery as well) you could use a blocking diode between the mill and battery to prevent the battery being dumped, but i dont like this method as it adds a 0.6v drop to the battery.
The best method is to use 2 x 3 phase rectifiers, one rectifier supplies the battery, the second rectifier supplies the dump load, this way there is no added diode loss to the battery system and also prevents battery discharge during activation of the dump load.
This is the system i use and it operates faultlessly, also the dump load runs much cooler because when the mill is dumping its like hitting the brakes and the load pulls the mill rpm down effectively stalling the mill in lighter winds, once stalled it just spins slowly making very little power till the dump load is switched off again.
Pete.Sometimes it just works
wallablack Senior Member Joined: 10/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 164
Posted: 03:39pm 22 Aug 2012
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Thank you all for your input. I have taken it all in and applied your knowledge. If it was not for the experienced members here where would we be?
I need to add a diode between the mill and the battery. Do I need one between the battery and the solenoid?
All I have on hand is:
3 x Schottky MBR1645 16 Amp 45V
13 x 1N5406
13 X 1N4001
5 X 1N5352B ZENER 15V 5W
Being impatient I REALLY want this going asap as I am looking at the anemometer reading 15m/s and I have a braked mill, grrrrr.
Do you have a link to a wiring diagram/pic, im interested and curious to see this.Foolproof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools.
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 05:34pm 22 Aug 2012
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I thought is was rather simple and didnt need a schematic.
Doing it this way you might not need that thumping contactor and the 40 mamp relay might do, it depends on the size of your mill and will it produce over 40 amp???
You say your mill is shut down because of no dump load.........WHY????
If your battery is full then it should be shut down otherwise you could have it charging and manually shut it down when the battery is charged.
Sometimes it just works
wallablack Senior Member Joined: 10/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 164
Posted: 06:12pm 22 Aug 2012
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Sorry, get it now.
I have 4 mills up. 1 treadmill motor mill, 1 Chinese 300W, 1 Chinese 200W and an F&P 7x2C.Foolproof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools.
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 11:18pm 22 Aug 2012
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Surely you dont have 1 dump load for all 4 mills?
From 7x2C i take it you are running 48 volt, so at full power of 500W you would be dumping around 10amp, so why the thumping contactor?
Some dump systems employ a relay to switch between battery or dump for the power from the mill, i think this is a dangerous method, as relays can fail leaving the mill isolated and not loaded to anything.
My view is the mill should ALWAYS be coupled to the battery and the dump switched on/off as needed without draining power from the battery.
Worst case then is the dump fails and you gas the batteries with over charge, its far better to need to add some water then pick the mill up from 1000M2 area.Sometimes it just works
wallablack Senior Member Joined: 10/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 164
Posted: 01:19am 24 Aug 2012
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Noooooooo, I don't have one dump load for 4 mills. It may say Newbie above my avatar but that doesn't automatically make me the "dummy".
This is basically what I have collected and played with:
I have a tready motor, ghurd controller and dump charging a 12V system running my shed flouros, LED lights and low current draw items - cant take the dump off there as it is my office too, and sort of need the power there.
A Chinese/Jaycar 300 W and Coleman Air controller and dump loads charging batteries running the fridge/freezer in the house.
F&P 7x2C + 400W solar running into a GTI & 200w mill running into another GTI.
We get a fairly good wind here but of late is has been really good so banks are full and dumps on.
I have just erected another F&P at home connected to a smaller battery bank to test and give to the better halfs Grandfathers for his farm. This was the one braked. Got the resistors today and built the dump load for this today so shes right and have proper blocking diodes for it now.
Downwind: I like your idea of the two rectifiers and I might utilize it in my next reconfiguration. I have just been given the go ahead from the "Minister of Spendings" to replace all my older batteries and buy a new battery bank and inverter so everything is going to focus on that soon. I need to do it right cos I cannot justify destroying 7k worth of batteries. Plans have changed a fair bit of late but this is where I have decided to go.
Foolproof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools.
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 05:44am 24 Aug 2012
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Using a blocking diode raises the cutin voltage to the battery by 0.6v which dont sound like much, but adds up to be a lot of power that could have gone to the battery that didnt.
100 amp 3 phase rectifiers out of china are about $10.00 each so not a huge expense to run 2 rectifiers.
[quote]I have a tready motor, ghurd controller and dump charging a 12V system running my shed flouros, LED lights and low current draw items - cant take the dump off there as it is my office too, and sort of need the power there.
A Chinese/Jaycar 300 W and Coleman Air controller and dump loads charging batteries running the fridge/freezer in the house. [/quote]
Confused here???
What are you using for dump loads??Sometimes it just works
wallablack Senior Member Joined: 10/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 164
Posted: 04:51am 25 Aug 2012
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6432 little 3mm LED's wired in series, nah, not really.
Could possibly use 12V 50W halogen light globes in the shed as a dump - good for when the batteries are full but the constant on off on off would be a pain aye. Wouldn't be too hard to switch between the normal lights and dump lights though. Hmmmmmmmmm, night time, 6mm drill bit, wind stops, dump lights go off, warm liquid covers hands, lights change over, lights go on, mess to be seen. Maybe it needs some planning. Rambling, tired, brain fade. Goodnight. Foolproof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools.
domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873
Posted: 09:25pm 26 Aug 2012
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Thanks downwind for the schematic. As I am easily confused and do not have a black belt in electrickery I need to ask you if it is worthwhile to switch on the dump load with three relays on the three-phase side or one relay on the DC side?
In other words, is there a loss in the connected rectifiers (to dump load) despite the fact that the dump load is switched off on the DC side? Should not be BUT connected transformers with no load get warm from memory?Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.
Winston Churchill
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 12:11am 27 Aug 2012
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No there is no losses with switching on the DC side with a relay.
Much cheaper switching the DC side.
Its best to use a Solid State relay, as they have no mechanical parts inside and should your system switch the relay repetitively then the SS relay wont cause problems.
I use 80 amp DC, SS relays for my dumpload, about $25-30.00 from China.
With using SS relays its best to use larger rated relays then needed (IE-60-80amp for 40amp resistive loads) this helps keep their temperature down.
The SS relay MUST be a DC,DC relay as there is AC SS relays that are often listed DC,AC which refers to DC to turn the relay on, and AC through the relay switching. (the AC relays will not work with a windmill even on the AC side)Sometimes it just works
domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873
Posted: 12:46pm 27 Aug 2012
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Thanks Downwind. Have seen those DC SS relays in the Jaycar catalogue and I assume the Chinese ones are cheaper.
Talking about AC SS relays; not that I am going to use them in the dump load context after your suggestion but what I find clever is that they switch ON at the voltage zero-crossing point and as there is a lag (lead?) with the amps with AC I faintly remember they switch OFF at the amp zero-crossing point.
Just for the discussion, why would they not work with a mill?Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.
Winston Churchill
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 04:57pm 27 Aug 2012
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[quote] Just for the discussion, why would they not work with a mill?[/quote]
If it discussion you want then ...go to the pub...if its answers you want then ask.
The problem with SSR and AC on a windmill is the operating voltage range and frequency range of the SSR.
Most are rated to 50-60Hz. with a voltage range of 24-480 VAC. needless to say we dont want our dumpload switching off at 24 volt, and a few hundred Hz range is not all that good either.
The zero crossing part is in the opto isolator driver, and as you can get drivers with and without zero crossing i would expect you can also get a SSR with or without zero crossing as well.Sometimes it just works
domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873
Posted: 10:20pm 27 Aug 2012
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Sorry, I meant I was interested in why it does not work for mills; English happens to be my second language.
Thanks for answer. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.
Winston Churchill
wallablack Senior Member Joined: 10/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 164
Posted: 11:22am 28 Aug 2012
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What sort of diode would anyone reccommend? It is a 12V system.
Would any of these do? On hand have multiple of:
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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